Zhuljin
Recruit
Or that crosbow troops with shield would turn with back (with shield on it) to the enemy end the turn around again when ready to fire
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The Noble Longbow
- 主题发起人 Cri11e
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So vanilla values are highly inaccurate. If this game was as easy to mod as Stellaris, I'd have made a realistic mod already putting my decade as a professor into the mod. So to save you a wall of text.
Yes it is powerful beyond belief.
Balance wise,up to each to decide so I will not touch the very subjective field of should they be A or B.
Historically, Recurve bows are more efficient than long bows. They are commonly known to have less range, and power only because they were made with the purpose of mounted cavalry mobility and weight in mind.
But, and it was well within the capacity of asian nations and tribes, if you make a recurve bow the size of a warbow, it would roughly be 10-20% more powerful while having far less difficulty in using it.
i.e: an 80lbs recurve bow has the power of a 100-120lb warbow. The former is much easier to shoot, believe me they are beautiful. Like comparing german made HK handgun to a Glock.
So much nonsense... Ofcourse crossbow is superior in energy transfer, because construction is more rigid, limbs are stronger, string is much tougher. With a bow a lot of energy is damped, while a crossbow is heavier and more stable. And it stores more energy than a bow, which is obvious, and releases it faster. Thats why bolts are so short and thick, because normal arrow would break if you fire it from a decent crossbow.
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Zhuljin
Recruit
would be nice if the crossbow troops with shield on their back would turn around while reloading
maybe just lower crossbow skill needed or indeed make them equipped but with a penalty
or just make sure that lvl 1/ 2 crossbows are buyable
every time i think lets try out the crossbow first it was 22000 and now my skill is to low and still cant find lvl 1 or 2 anywhere
video games taught me that crossbows were good against armor (penetration) but bow could fire further and faster
i guess TW needs to decide if they want this to be realistic and look into what is the truth
# make spears great again
maybe just lower crossbow skill needed or indeed make them equipped but with a penalty
or just make sure that lvl 1/ 2 crossbows are buyable
every time i think lets try out the crossbow first it was 22000 and now my skill is to low and still cant find lvl 1 or 2 anywhere
video games taught me that crossbows were good against armor (penetration) but bow could fire further and faster
i guess TW needs to decide if they want this to be realistic and look into what is the truth
# make spears great again
最后编辑:
TheWitchIzalith
Regular
I shoot 150lb English longbows, and have fired 960lb Crossbows that you need to use a literal crank to load.
The longbow is superior, and can go up to 220 lbs. The average was 120-150.
The reason that Crossbows became popular was because they are easy to use. Storage of Energy is not equal to Transfer of Energy. As addressed earlier by someone else. Not to mention that bolts were often much heavier than arrows.
A Longbowmen needed years of training and to be fit. A crossbowmen needed arms.
In Warband, The Rhodoks could use the shields, so presumably that's a feature yet to be implemented.
The Noble Bow has more missile speed and can be used on horseback. Just the missile speed makes me think it might be better than the Noble Longbow.
TheWitchIzalith
Regular
Can confirm is much fun.
Agreed, when i started playing the first thing i noticed was how oddly long i was able to keep full accuracy with a bow before it started failing. its absurdly long that the passive trait to allow your character to hold steady is useless.
I actually didn't play too much with xbow's yet so i cant comment on it but do they have a much more straight arc when shot compared to the bow or higher speed when shot compared to the bow.
I'm just gonna make a file and cheat the xbows so i can play with them.
I managed 133 xbow skill through retreat ... after 125 it is noticably faster to fire
it is pretty strange that there are only crossbows with small bows really. You can increase their draw weight and all, but keeping their arms small, with short acceleration and very short bolt, even though thick and heavy, you arent getting much back. Was trigger the problem or what was it that kept the 'mainstream' crossbows small and very power-inefficient ? Steel prods, bows helped add draw weight, not efficiency. It is strange.
it is pretty strange that there are only crossbows with small bows really. You can increase their draw weight and all, but keeping their arms small, with short acceleration and very short bolt, even though thick and heavy, you arent getting much back. Was trigger the problem or what was it that kept the 'mainstream' crossbows small and very power-inefficient ? Steel prods, bows helped add draw weight, not efficiency. It is strange.
Thank you, somebody else who dabbles in archery or history overall. Using terms such as "nonsense" or a condescending tone doesn't help anyone.
Crossbows may be more powerful in paper, but they don't transfer the same way. The bolt is shorter, drag on a thicket projectile makes it loose its energy quicker.
A simple breakdown of bows to dispel assumptions, and by all means corroborate through extensive reading, and to reinforcewhat @TheWitchIzalith has said:
Short bows:
-Bows used by hunters most of the time
-Bows used on horseback although they weren't really.
!!! They are shorter, carry less force and use lighter projectiles.
!!! These type of weapons used arrows that don't weight that much and capitalize on their heads to do much of the damage. These arrows can vary from 8 grains (standard arrow measuring system) to around 100 grains. These are very light arrows, that can travel far greater distances. But their penetration capability is very low.
!!! These bows had the advantage of being able to be shot without putting your entire body behind the pull. They also do not create deformations on the skeletal system as long bows have shown to have on Medieval archers
Recurve bows:
The transfer of energy is smooth, so very smooth. The energy is stored in great quantities even before the string is pulled. And when released the energy is transferred evenly throughout the motion to the arrow. That isn't the same for warbows. These bows tend to run 10-20% more efficient than longbows/warbows.
!!! Expensive to manufacture, magnitudes more expensive than shortbows or warbows. These bows require often years to make. Their glue, depending on the region it was made can be resistant to humidity, or downright make it unusable and had to be kept in a leather bag. The Mongols for example couldn't use their bows effectively in Vietnam.
!!! These bows are the upgrade of a warbow/longbow. But were historically, NOT as powerful.Not because they couldn't be, but because the users of such weapons often faced poorly armored individuals and their priority was to maintain mobility, limiting weight and increasing ease of use. Primarily associated with horse archery. So they were kept rather smaller compared to their warbow cousins.
Now a Recurve bow the size of a warbow is a beast. I urge you to go online and check the greatest shooters in asia, during the late 1800's whose championships with human size recurve bows make the longbow seem like a child's toy.
Warbows:
Roughly the size of a human. These are built from a single piece of wood, extremely easy to manufacture. But the brute strength required to operate them isn't simple to acquire.
!!!These bows use different arrows, or "military arrows". From historical findings we have been able to estimate that the arrows used in these weapons were a minimum of 500 grains, and through experimentation the suggestion of an arrow of no less than 1200 grains should be fired from a bow. As it could damage the arrow and lower the quality of the bow itself. The other bows used arrows in the 1 to two digit in grain weight. These arrows were heavier.
!!!weather conditions made the longbow less likely to weaken. Bows of the time have to be unstrung for some periods of time to let them shape back to their original state so as to gain their potential to store energy. Warbows can be strung for far longer, and left un-strung for far shorter periods of time compared to re-curve bows.
Crossbows:
Compard to warbows in their strength and potential to distribute energy.
!!!but the weight of the projectile made it loose energy far quicker, hence less range.
!!! Their firing rate is nothing like in the game. A crossbow has roughly a 1:5 ratio compared to even a heavy warbow. Crossbows are very slow to shoot. Even less so if they use heavy cranking mechanisms, rather than just a lever.
!!!Their biggest advantage, while nowhere near as expensive or time consuming to make as a recurve bow, the stable boy, or the underfed farmer who barely used a bow in his life could become a crossbowman in a few weeks, compared to months or years for warbows, and less so for recurve.
_+_++_
The issue I hope this game, or a mod addresses, is not so much the bow itself that governs damage. It is the actual skill of the user, and let me rephrase that; not skill but pure brute strength.
You give me a recurve bow and I can let loose 25 arrows plus or minus before loosing efficiency. You give me a comparatively 'powerful' warbow, capable of storing similar energy...and I'll likely loose 5-10 arrows before I my efficiency drops.
It is not as much the bow itself, but the time spent building up muscle to use those bows that is the factor. Not so much for crossbows, or re-curve really. So I hope the stats for bows are decreased, but the modifiers for the bow skill is substantially increased
最后编辑:
You got it backyards. Because it's construction is rigid, limbs stronger, strings tougher and bolts shorter and thicker, crossbow is far inferior in energy transfer. Yes, it's stores more energy, but transfers much smaller % of it to a bolt, compared to a bow. See the video I have posted before.
Ok, longbow fanboys, I got it. Crossbow sucks, bolts are thick and heavy for no reason, a longbow arrow obviously could go through plate armor, and horse, and another plate armor, in a sequence. While a crossbow is much less effective weapon, used by stupid peasants and only because no practice needed. Stay with your opinion, doesn’t matter to me ?
Agreed, but nonetheless a crossbow has more chance to penetrate from a close distance. Because bolt is pretty stable in flight, while arrow bends and vibrates like crazy. So the bolt will hit at right angle more often, transferring all its mass into impact. And usually it bounces as a one piece. While arrows tend to slide and shatter into pieces, that's what we see in a numerous tests on youtube. But its only a plate. If we consider there is gambeson/chainmail underneath, there is no chance for any arrow.
最后编辑:
Maximum997
Squire
I played with them. It is just the worse version of bow. May be it is better when you need more then 2,5 seconds to aim like thse guy.
which bow fires arrow, 374-426 Joules of kinetic energy ? Please ! You are shown a historical reproduction, surely at 11,4 kilos, not very field-friendly, but unlike some myths that there were no strong crossbows putting any bow to shame, you folks seem to ignore it.1250 lb draw (570 kg or so)
Tods workshop video with 160 lb long bow had a maximum of 120 Joules.
Im saying, the crossbow I put video about, has literally 3,5-4 times the energy on its bolt while crossbow stores 7,8x times the energy. Energy transfer is not as efficient, but still enough to put a longbow into a toy category in comparison.
320 gram bolt. 0,32 kg. 0,704 lb/pound.
look at 4:52 At 10 meters, 160 libra longbow, 80 gram arrow. 55,3 meters per second. Kinetic energy 123 Joules. (10 meters)
the crossbow video above, the first video chronometer was closer to the crossbow, so not exactly the same, but still very relevant.(1-2 m from crossbow)
heavy bolt mass 320 grams. 51,62 meters per second velocity. Kinetic energy 426 Joules.
time : 0:59
the bolt is literally 4 times as heavy and flies almost as fast as the longbow arrow. The lighter bolt flies faster at 58 m/s. With 374 Joules of energy at 222 grams. Almost 3 times as heavy as the arrow.
Tods workshop video with 160 lb long bow had a maximum of 120 Joules.
Im saying, the crossbow I put video about, has literally 3,5-4 times the energy on its bolt while crossbow stores 7,8x times the energy. Energy transfer is not as efficient, but still enough to put a longbow into a toy category in comparison.
320 gram bolt. 0,32 kg. 0,704 lb/pound.
look at 4:52 At 10 meters, 160 libra longbow, 80 gram arrow. 55,3 meters per second. Kinetic energy 123 Joules. (10 meters)
the crossbow video above, the first video chronometer was closer to the crossbow, so not exactly the same, but still very relevant.(1-2 m from crossbow)
heavy bolt mass 320 grams. 51,62 meters per second velocity. Kinetic energy 426 Joules.
time : 0:59
the bolt is literally 4 times as heavy and flies almost as fast as the longbow arrow. The lighter bolt flies faster at 58 m/s. With 374 Joules of energy at 222 grams. Almost 3 times as heavy as the arrow.
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SissiJaeger
Recruit
WOOP WOOP
Hold your horses there good sir!
Mongolian composite bows have historically shot over 500m and hit a target. And also the warbows mongols used were around 100-157lb depending on the actual bow and user.
