The naive newbie's guide to M&B 0.808

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Sturmspawn

Squire
EDIT: [12mar07]

For those of you encountering this thread for the first time, I would like to offer a brief introduction. My original intent when starting this thread was to 'simply' document my observations and notes, in hopes of helping a few other new players avoid a lot of 'exploration' and dead-end time. I never really expected this to grow to 12 pages, nor to cover a lot of the ground that it does. I had hoped to be a little more structured, but that soon became impossible - which is perfectly all right. I learned a lot from the correspondents on this thread, and on all of the side trips. What I can suggest to the new reader is that you read it in its entirety - even if that means skipping or scanning past some sections that don't interest you at the moment. This is neither a manual nor a play guide, but on the other hand it has become the sort of document that I wish more games included.

I had thought about indexing it, or listing some of what I consider key entries, but it soon became apparent that it wouldn't really be effective. You may want to do that yourself - for instance, to bookmark some of the tables and 'pure' data lists - but I can't bring myself to say "Oh, you could skip this and go on to here." A lot of people have contributed to this thread, and I hope that they continue to do so. Thanks!

End Edit.
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[EDIT 24mar07]
I did happen to cull a few links into this thread -

partial list of unit specs
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg476267.html#msg476267

upgrade paths in 0.808
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg472426.html#msg472426

base character specs
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg467368.html#msg467368

weapon spec anomalies
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg454161.html#msg454161

power draw
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg458103.html#msg458103

directories and structure
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg469599.html#msg469599

battlesize and AI unit selection
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg470510.html#msg470510

[end edit]


Before I get into the nitty gritty, I should explain that I am not particularly adept at eye-hand coordination games - so my enthusiasm for this game goes beyond charging across the plains effortlessly slicing up opponents. I would also note that I have no experience with versions prior to .808, nor am I fully aware of a lot of the finesse features of game. I do have some observations that may help another newbie, and possibly an old-timer or two, get into the game with less of a learning curve. These observations are not necessarily in order of anything.

1. Issuing orders. You can issue orders in arena play. They help. You definitely should make a point of issuing orders in regular combat, if nothing more than an initial 'everybody charge!' at the outset. The more abstract aspect of this is that you are the leader, and your troops respond to your encouragement and direction. It is not necessary for you to fight the whole battle by yourself. I have actually had a few battles where I did nothing but ride around the perimeter shouting encouragement [while studying what my troops were doing]. One specific case - I find a good bellowed "Charge!" is often effective at breaking up those cluster situations, where ten of your troops ball up to pounce on one poor enemy infantry [all the while getting shot at by enemy archers on the periphery]. One other thing that you do as leader is reconnaissance. Observe and direct.

2. Travel by night/Fight by night. Overall I would suggest that your very first use of skill points would be to get spotting up to three - as your ability to spot and evade opponents in your 'juvenile' levels will help you to pick your battles to match your capabilities. Travel by night is a bit slower, but you get there with less encounters - this is particularly important if you are doing trade. [more on trade below.] I suspect that archery points accumulate faster at night [as the shots are inherently more difficult], but I could be wrong. It is something of a tactical challenge to keep the moon behind you when setting up a shot.

3. Watch your encumbrance. The significance of encumbrance is not to be underestimated - your ability to wield a weapon, especially the lower end items, and especially when you are at 'juvenile' strength, is very much affected by this. Heavy armor, at times, just can't get out of its own way. Better to be lighter and agile and strike at maximum effect than to be protected against the strikes of your opponents. If you are a berserker, carry just your one weapon. If you are an archer, you will probably need a sword as well. Consider NOT carrying a shield [learn to dodge and weave when you move]. Good light armor will be sufficient. Plan on striking and not getting hit too often [in this game the best defense is offense].

4. In battle, never stop moving - and assume that your opponents are doing the same. While berserking on the ground is a lot of fun, individual maneuver is critical, and horses amplify this capacity. You will even see this in one-on-one in Zendar training: your ability to outmaneuver your opponent is just as effective [if not moreso] than your ability to block. I discovered that I never rightclick.

5. Shopping. I don't know why, but of the three games I have played at length, I prefer female characters. They fight just as well, but they shop better. If you see an item that is rare [and you will learn to recognize them], buy them. Do not wait. Case in point - the reinforced steppe hat, weight 1.0, head armor 10, is rare if not unique. Khergit bows, just a tad faster than Strong bows are also rare, and you may never get a second chance to acquire them. Even if you do not have the required strength or attributes for an item [yet], put them in your war chest [the one in Zendar, or one of the others] when you can. I never pass a town without shopping. I suspect that I spend as much time shopping as fighting.

6. Horses. Along with shopping, the right horse can make a significant difference. Subjectively, the 'right' horse can be as meaningful as a couple of skill points in riding. The horses you practice on are horrendous, and in retrospect it is amazing that you can even deliver a passing blow from some of them. Courtly ladies start out with a spirited courser. Nice, but not very hardy and prone to getting lamed. By all means get your riding up to three and get a spirited steppe horse. You may never ride anything else unless you get into jousting on a charger. Those maneuver values are very meaningful, and the difference between 10 and 11 is significant - as significant as a riding skill point or two. As far as speed and capacity versus inventory size goes, while I ride steppe horses, I tend to have about 1 spirited courser for every 5 or 6 inventory slots. That's probably overkill, but I do like to be able to evade an enemy I do not wish to fight. I have also been known to switch off between steppe horses for battle and spirited coursers for overland travel speed - again this seems superstitious, but a slight difference does seem to exist. 

7. Cheap provisioning. Sea Raiders seem to have a lot of very expensive, very good, and very cumbersome armor. Whacking a few of these bands is a good way to provision your companions without a big cash outlay. However, I have found that downgrading them as soon as cash-feasible from heavy mail taken from sea raiders to lighter, less cumbersome armor results in better performance - they get damaged less and accumulate more experience [fight more efficiently]. This is what put me onto studying the effect of encumbrance. The fact that Sea Raiders are so easily defeated despite their good armor tends to substantiate the encumbrance penalty. Of course, this is just a matter of philosophy and approach. But remember, you will have a band of ever-increasing size and strength, and most of your knights will have heavy armor - and the strength and weapon points to overcome it. You do not have to face a dark knight on your own, unless you insist. Back to the Sea Raiders for a minute - even though you don't wish to keep the loot you take from them, they are a great source of cash income. The bad news is that most of the merchants in the vicinity of your Sea Raider battles won't have enough cash to buy out what you want to sell. I have a lot of respect for these SR's - I never take them prisoner.

8. Companions. There are some discussions regarding the capabilities and values of Marnid and Borcha [M&B - where did they get that?]. All I can say is that this is what you have to work with. M&B's starting values are different depending on which character you start with - so it is rather difficult to generalize about them. My suggestion is that you develop them as complementary skillsets with respect to your own character. For instance - if you are an archer, make one of them a swordsman and the other a crossbowman. One thing that they are good for is to cover your activity on the battlefield ["Companions - follow me"] without having your whole party follow you around. I also suggest that you obtain weapons, armor, and horses for them before you have them join your party. Divvying up functionality between them is also an interesting puzzle. If one of them has intelligence, then by all means make one of them the wound/surgery/firstaid carrier - but don't waste attribute points on intelligence or charisma upgrades on them. As with your own character, it is important that you closely manage encumbrance on them. Do not give them more weapons than they need, and skip the gratuitous shields unless you think they need 'em [for instance, a swordsman Marnid might have only one sword and and a fast shield - the other weapon slots are not used]. It is also important to monitor their development [by watching them accumulate weapon-point upgrades by experience] to see if they are actually using the weapons you give them. Give them the best horses that they can use. In developing Borcha as a crossbowman, I expect to see a crossbow improvement of one or two on every battle. If this does not happen, I look to find out why.

9. Spending your attribute-skill-weapons points. Dunno about you, but I like to wait until I have about 5 or 6 attribute points to spend on my character, with a few more available on M&B, before I use them. This means I get to see the characters perform over a considerable amount of time to discover where reinforcement is needed. I often discover that I have as many as 7 or 8 attribute points that I am in no hurry to use. I suspect [but cannot prove] that experience rewards are more generous to lower level and lower attributed characters. Another way to look at it is that I would like to reach a weapon master threshhold on one strength/agility set before increasing both weapon-master and power-draw/strike. This is purely superstitious, but I mention it as it seems to be a pattern in my notes.

10. Difficulty levels. It is an outstanding design feature that you can adjust difficulty levels by several characteristics - for instance, you can increase the battle size [i.e. permit your opponents to field a larger force than your own] OR the AI's battle skill, or a number of other aspects. This permits you to tune up the difficulty to develop specific aspects of your own character and party. Be sure to experiment with this.

11. Pick your battles. Sure, you can just take on any party that wishes to fight, but I tend to select battles that offer specific gains [look at the prisoner roster and see what you might gain, or look at the opponent type to see what kind of battle it will be and what kind of loot they have].

12. Picking sides. I am absolutely on the fence about this. Most of my characters' personae are such that they just aren't joiners. There is a lot of forum discussion about this. I make a point of keeping an even number of S and V members in my party.


Master trade route

The table below outlines a route with a partial repetition.
the SEQuence indicates the order in which you visit each town, what to buy and where you sell it. The idea was to maximize the utility of your inventory slots. In theory - disregarding expenses for tavern stays and party food, a single inventory slot should yield 491 denars net gain after traversing the circuit once. Of course, this assumes that you can afford some of the items [spice costs 300+ a unit], and that the items are available [there is usually at least three of the towns' highlight items, but don't count on Praven always having lots of ale to haul to Khudan for a big profit on iterated transits]. You will need at least 500 denars per slot to start this - I like to work three slots. With a fast horse and good spotting capability, you can do this on our own. I like to take a new character around the circuit twice with no party - just to shop and sightsee. Working three slots for trade won't slow you down much, and after two circuits you will have about 3000 denars to work with. The AFFinity column shows which towns are part of which side's domain [Swadian or Vaegir].





Seq. Aff. Go To Item Sell At

1 I Zendar Tools Tulga
2 / 10 V Tulga Spice Praven
3 / 11 S Praven Ale Khudan
4 / 12 V Khudan Furs Suno
5 / 13 S Suno Oil Rivacheg
6 / 14 V Rivachg Meat 7-Veluca
15-Curaw
7 S Veluca Wine Werchag
8 V Wercheg Fish Uxkhal
9 S Uxkhal Wheat Tulga
15 V Curaw Iron Sargoth
16 S Sargoth Linen Halmar
17 V Halmar Pottery Jelkala
18 S Jelkala Velvet [Reyvadin]
19 I Saltmine Salt for Zendar
20 V Reyvadin Wool for Tihr
21 S Tihr [Fish]
Zendar

I Four-Way
S Culmarr Castle
V Rhadogir Castle



This next table is just a quick reference to what a town sells and buys.



Buy Town Sell

Tools Zendar Salt
Spice Tulga Tools
Spice Tulga Wheat
Ale Praven Spice
Furs Khudan Ale
Oil Suno Furs
Meat Rivach Oil
Wine Veluca Meat
Iron Curaw Meat
Fish Werchag Wine
Fish Tihr Wool
Wheat Uxkhal Fish
Wool Reyvad Velvet
Velvet Jelkala Pottery
Pottery Halmar Linen
Linen Sargoth Iron
Salt Saltmine ---

Saltmine & Zendar have Slave Traders

 
A few points I'd like to respond to:

2. Don't put points into tracking, but instead, get Borcha in your party. Borcha starts out with points in trackign and you'll save a few skill points.
3. Carrying a shield is usually a good idea. Dodge and weave doesn't always work and it's useless against many archers.
6. It's better to get very cheap horses (esp. lame) as pack horses, since horse type and modifiers have no effect on their pack horse ability. Of course, having 1 or 2 backup horses is never a bad idea.
8. The most common (dare I generalize?!) thing to do with the companions is to turn them into skill dumps. They can be turned into effective combatants, but it usually takes a long time. It's easier to just spend their skill points on skills like tracking and surgery, rather than your own skill points.
9. There's no point in deliberately saving up skill points, but there's also no need to use them if you don't have anything you want to get. If you use the skill points now, you'll be that much stronger when you fight the enemy.
10. It's best to keep AI at the highest level possible, since the M&B AI is not very good as it is. The AI level affects your own units as well as the enemy's.
11. Having both S and V units in your army will hurt your morale, but it's not that important. Rather than trying to maintain a strict ratio, it's best to choose the units that best fit your playing style.

P.S. You might want to turn your lists into tables.
P.P.S. In the last table, you should probably put the town before the goods that they buy and sell.
 
Nice. Might steal it for the library :smile:

Some observations:
1. Issuing orders. You can issue orders in arena play.
This can be a life saver in the larger battles, especially if you get landed with a bow and no horse. Giving the hold order won't prevent men charging off after the foe (the arena's are a little too small) but they will tend to hang around more and protect your back. Similarly, in the larger battles you'll find your team more effective if ordered to follow you.
2. Travel by night/Fight by night.
Look for battles already in progress which you can join, especially at lower levels. Popping into a battle with 10 manhunters against 3 River Pirates will get you experience pretty much for free. It's also good practice if you want to get used to commanding troops - you can still issue commands, and any casualties won't cost you money. A useful strategy is to stay solo and max out your travelling speed, then look for battles you can join. You get the advantages of fighting with a group, plus higher XP gain and no wages or recruitment costs. All you lose out on are the higher tier troops.
3. Watch your encumbrance.
As a general rule, infantry should aim for leather armour until athletics can be built up, at which point switch to medium armour. Don't think about wearing plate unless you're mounted.
Also, don't underestimate weapon speed. Daggers may look pathetic on the face of it, but a high agility combined with their high speed means you can often attack multiple times before your enemy can even swing. With the lesser opponents, you can often stunlock them to death.
4. In battle, never stop moving - and assume that your opponents are doing the same.
Unless your an archer. Mounted archers especially suffer penalties to accuracy when moving. The ideal tactic for a mounted archer is to ride ahead of the enemy, stop and loose off a few shots. Move again when the enemy are near.
6. Horses.
Worth pointing out that increased riding skill will improve the handling of the horse regardless of it's stats. With a riding skill of 10, even the arena practice horses feel like a sports car.
Another tip - crippled horses will heal over time if kept in your inventory. They'll lose any modifiers though. An interesting aspect of this is to buy an already lame horse, leave it in the inventory then sell it when it recovers for a tidy profit.
Final tip - extra horses in the inventory reduce the speed penalty on the overland map for encumbrance/party size.
8. Companions.
The key to using the NPC's is focus. Concentrate either on their combat skills or their party skills if you want them to be effective. Trying to build a balanced character for the AI is a waste of time - they need good combat skills to be worthwhile in battle, if you don't intend to go for a heavy focus here you're better off spending the skill points on character skills.
9. Spending your attribute-skill-weapons points.
Again a planned character will serve better than picking at random. One useful tip is to put a level or two into weapon master early - it seems to increase the speed your weapon skills develop through use.
10. Difficulty levels.
Watch out for that battle slider. Switching to the smallest size possible can actually make the game harder, since you end up in an endurance contest of several rounds.
12. Picking sides.
Picking sides can be useful. The wages never really meet your costs, but the extra experience from faction quests is nice. You can also attack enemy merchants (great loot) or enemy parties (great XP)
 
Thanks for the amendments, and I hope that there are more.

I had originally searched the library and all, but didn't find anything as expansive as what you all have added. Will the final version have a manual? specifically, will there ever be any specification of the calcs [conflict odds resolution, weapon efficiency, effects of terrain, weather, encumbrance, horse, etc] on which the game operates?

The point about AI level having an impact on your own troops is very interesting, and I will check it out.

One of the things that I find intriguing about this game is the options for character/companion development. The original attraction was the notion of overlaying a persona on your character, and with a bit of discipline, keeping that character consistent. Is there any thought to developing character interactions/storyline any further? the engine would seem to offer support for more extended dialogue. I've thought about that a lot. Dunno if that's a mod thing. 

As far as morale goes - even with mixed troops [say 19 of each V & S Knights], I am able to maintain excellent morale. Is this a consequence of a leadership style? frequency of battle, effective leadership in battle, risk-taking, income production? Maybe all those knights prefer a female leader in nice tight leathers.

As far as archery, I may have it wrong, but even with my own clumsy eye-hand thing I have been able to get some one-shot kills in hot pursit of a mounted and running enemy - and this with horse-arch at 2 or 3, powerdraw 3 and other skills at relatively low levels [character levels 16-20]. Am I working too hard at this, or am I doing better than I thought?

I had actually been setting the battlesize slider to about 10% larger than my party size, as most enemy parties seem to have a contingent of infantry that can be picked off quickly - thus reducing the overall battle times.  My 29 against their 36 seemed to be no problem. Probably that AI thing. I had also tended to have all mounted troops, as footsoldiers just slow things down. When I get up to larger party sizes I plan to re-introduce them. As mentioned in another post, however, I did find that following a Swadian sharpshooter around a few battles was very educational.

Speaking of low-end weaponry - one of my characters was a real menace with an Iron Staff. I think generally that is my all-time favorite weapon [the prisoners all said "Just don't let her get off the damn horse with that thing"]. Of course, it generates lots of prisoners [which I have lately taken to turning loose as it really disrupts flow to have go sell them], but it also seemed to develop lots of XP. Another favorite and rare item was the Glaive. Seems to be only one good one in the game.

In any case, I hope others feel like adding some detailed additions.




 
pretty cool. Maybe some begginer fighting tips. Such as the "if you start as warrior, go buy a pitchfork first because you can couch with it"
 
Another unsubstantiated observation -

Travelling with prisoners in your party seems to make you very attractive to other hostiles. Without them, evasion of an undesired encounter is pretty simple, but with them you tend have more pursuit situations. No big matter, just an aspect of overland travel. Of course, prisioners do slow you down somewhat. Dunno if it's the size of your party [you are easier to spot], the slowness of your party, or the loot potential that prisioners represent that creates this magnetism. Probably all of these.

Unless it's a convenient sidetrip to sell them I tend to leave them [unless they are really oboxious - had a few dark knight/hunters that I was tickled to sell off]. The real point of this is that along with all of the other character development considerations, positioning yourself as a fulltime bounty hunter [investing heavily in prisoner management] may not be all that attractive. Of course, if you are playing the 'recruit from prisoners mod' [which I have heard of but have no experience with] this may be a different story.

This also touches a bit on inventory management: it does not take a long time to get to the point where your battles produce more value in loot than all the merchants in a nearby town can absorb - especially once you are not buying all that much. It seems a bit wasteful to abandon so much on the battlefield, but then, you can always find more. Thus enhancing your inventory management has a limited return on investment [you just end up hauling loot around with you, only to be swapping it in the next battle's loot for even higher value stuff, which you can't easily liquidate], although I couldn't say where that threshhold is for any particular character profile.
 
At lower levels, prisioners are a really attractive form of income. why? one party of 5 river pirates will net you only 20gold from harak, and mabye 20 more from loot. however, the 5 prisioners will grant you an extra 100 gold. not bad if you ask me :grin:

also, yes, larger parties can be spotted from further away, so your prisioners will make you easier to spot.

Finially, prisioners speed up and slow down your party in the same way your normal troops do. this means, if you carry around a few horsemen as prisioners, it'll actually speed up your party.
 
yes indeed, the initial river pirate quest is certainly worthwhile, and works a lot better with prisoner mgmt at 1 or 2. The question you have to consider as you develop is do you continue to increase the capacity? The answer of course is purely personal, but for us newbies, setting some of these things up because they look attractive at low levels [e.g. 5 thru 11] sets us on a course we later realize we didn't necessarily want to take. 

One thing I have noticed - and perhaps it is because of my tendency to use attrib/skill points in quantum jumps - is that the game takes on differing characteristics as you increase XP, and while these transitions are not exactly predictable, you do want to leave some latitude for later stage development choices. Simply stated, you want to leave your own characters' development a bit vague and grey at the edges until you see how things work out - but you also want to maximize certain aspects of low-levelness as well.
 
sneakey pete said:
Finially, prisioners speed up and slow down your party in the same way your normal troops do. this means, if you carry around a few horsemen as prisioners, it'll actually speed up your party.

However, the prisoners get a penalty to their speed, so if you have a prisoner that normally has a speed of 12, it might only count as 9 when it's a prisoner. In other words, unless your army is really slow, it's likely that prisoners will slow or have no effect on your speed.
 
...somehow hauling prisoners along for an extended period doesn't seem a really efficient tactic to gain speed.... They also eat a lot, and you have to pay for them at the taverns too. However, in very early stages of the game [again, levels 6 thru 12 or so], this might actually be beneficial, assuming that your initial low-end band of troops can capture some higher end and faster prisioners [a penalized group of riding prisoners have got to be faster than footsoldiers].

And speaking of taverns... I haven't noticed any hit to morale when I make my troops stake out a hill top overnight, or in night travel generall, but I always give them a night at the tavern after a battle.

Another purely subjective observation - in addition to rain's impact on crossbow effect, it seems that most opponents do NOT use archers much in night figthing. I haven't noticed any penalty to my own archer characters for night fighting, except the obvious reduced visibility. Is there any specific calculated penalty or offset for night fighting? port of my rationale for night fighting at the outset was that it was just another way to make riding and archery more difficult from an eye-hand coordination perspective, and I figured if I could learn to handle night fights then my 'real' agility would improve considerably.  Whatever the effects are, I tend to consider night fighting a perfectly valid option - and in some cases I suspect it gives me an advantage. I realize that this is absolutely inconsistent with the tactical doctrines of the times, but then, it's only a game.

Oh yes - that tip about travelling alone and looking for battles in progress that could use your leadership is an excellent suggestion - and one I had not considered as I wandered around in newbieness. The next time I start a new character I will definitely look to maximize that idea. These are exactly the kinds of things that would make newbieness far less painful and tedious.



 
Sturmspawn said:
...somehow hauling prisoners along for an extended period doesn't seem a really efficient tactic to gain speed.... They also eat a lot, and you have to pay for them at the taverns too. However, in very early stages of the game [again, levels 6 thru 12 or so], this might actually be beneficial, assuming that your initial low-end band of troops can capture some higher end and faster prisioners [a penalized group of riding prisoners have got to be faster than footsoldiers].

And speaking of taverns... I haven't noticed any hit to morale when I make my troops stake out a hill top overnight, or in night travel generall, but I always give them a night at the tavern after a battle.

Another purely subjective observation - in addition to rain's impact on crossbow effect, it seems that most opponents do NOT use archers much in night figthing. I haven't noticed any penalty to my own archer characters for night fighting, except the obvious reduced visibility. Is there any specific calculated penalty or offset for night fighting? port of my rationale for night fighting at the outset was that it was just another way to make riding and archery more difficult from an eye-hand coordination perspective, and I figured if I could learn to handle night fights then my 'real' agility would improve considerably.  Whatever the effects are, I tend to consider night fighting a perfectly valid option - and in some cases I suspect it gives me an advantage. I realize that this is absolutely inconsistent with the tactical doctrines of the times, but then, it's only a game.

Oh yes - that tip about travelling alone and looking for battles in progress that could use your leadership is an excellent suggestion - and one I had not considered as I wandered around in newbieness. The next time I start a new character I will definitely look to maximize that idea. These are exactly the kinds of things that would make newbieness far less painful and tedious.

Unless you're deadset on carrying an entire army of slaves with you, their effect on food and tavern costs is negligible. I find night fighting difficult and pointless, since the enemy AI still fights the same, but I can't see as well (I like playing with another light on, so the LCD can get washed out).

I prefer to start out with 6 intelligence and 2 inventory management. Those extra slots are very helpful since I usually use 9 slots or so holding alternate weapons, food, and extra horses. The 12 extra slots means you'll be able to loot several battles before returning to town to sell it off.
 
Sturmspawn said:
Thanks for the amendments, and I hope that there are more.

I had originally searched the library and all, but didn't find anything as expansive as what you all have added. Will the final version have a manual? specifically, will there ever be any specification of the calcs [conflict odds resolution, weapon efficiency, effects of terrain, weather, encumbrance, horse, etc] on which the game operates?

The point about AI level having an impact on your own troops is very interesting, and I will check it out.

One of the things that I find intriguing about this game is the options for character/companion development. The original attraction was the notion of overlaying a persona on your character, and with a bit of discipline, keeping that character consistent. Is there any thought to developing character interactions/storyline any further? the engine would seem to offer support for more extended dialogue. I've thought about that a lot. Dunno if that's a mod thing. 

As far as morale goes - even with mixed troops [say 19 of each V & S Knights], I am able to maintain excellent morale. Is this a consequence of a leadership style? frequency of battle, effective leadership in battle, risk-taking, income production? Maybe all those knights prefer a female leader in nice tight leathers.

As far as archery, I may have it wrong, but even with my own clumsy eye-hand thing I have been able to get some one-shot kills in hot pursit of a mounted and running enemy - and this with horse-arch at 2 or 3, powerdraw 3 and other skills at relatively low levels [character levels 16-20]. Am I working too hard at this, or am I doing better than I thought?

I had actually been setting the battlesize slider to about 10% larger than my party size, as most enemy parties seem to have a contingent of infantry that can be picked off quickly - thus reducing the overall battle times.  My 29 against their 36 seemed to be no problem. Probably that AI thing. I had also tended to have all mounted troops, as footsoldiers just slow things down. When I get up to larger party sizes I plan to re-introduce them. As mentioned in another post, however, I did find that following a Swadian sharpshooter around a few battles was very educational.

Speaking of low-end weaponry - one of my characters was a real menace with an Iron Staff. I think generally that is my all-time favorite weapon [the prisoners all said "Just don't let her get off the damn horse with that thing"]. Of course, it generates lots of prisoners [which I have lately taken to turning loose as it really disrupts flow to have go sell them], but it also seemed to develop lots of XP. Another favorite and rare item was the Glaive. Seems to be only one good one in the game.

In any case, I hope others feel like adding some detailed additions.

Nice post.
Morale increases as you rest in taverns. If your party is starving or finghting for a long period of time without rest, morale will decrease.
Personally i only have prisoner management at 2, (lvl 23 car) and i dont think i need more. I like to move as fast as i can, because the faster you move, the faster you level and make money, as well as avoid unwanted conflicts with dark hunters.
 
Inventory slots seem to be a determining factor to a lot of other things. It can be frustrating to have a lot of leadership [party slots] without being able to easily generate enough cash to pay to populate them. It's also nice to have enough time to not have to be in battle constantly, to move around and pick battles, or travel between towns to obtain and fulfill quests. I am generally aiming to spend no more than 20% of my time generating income to pay party wages. I tend to look for one battle a day, although there are days when I will do two. This means that about 75% of the take from loot can be invested in armor/weapon upgrades - and of course the luxury of tavern stays. 

There seems to be some effective upper limits to party size - if you are at the maximum battle size and are not losing many party members in battle [say one knight for every 3-4 battles], is there much point to having a party size larger than 44 or so? If so, is there any way to select which of your own party go into battle with you? [for instance, you are battling in the snow and you'd like to have more archers, or you are battling in hilly forests and would like to have more mounted forces, less archers?]. 

And given the effective upper limit on party size, there would seem to be a limited return on investment in more inventory slots. As mentioned, with inventory up around 4, there are situations where you bring more to a merchant than they can afford to liquidate. 

I can see some value having a regular alternate equipment/horse array [I carry at least one alternate weapon to select weapons before a battle based on terrain and opponent types, and two alternate horses for the same purposes]. Initially I felt that I could never have enough inventory slots, but now I find I'd rather beef up things like athletics, riding, the powers, ....

I am also wondering if your party is able to avail itself of the spoils you leave behind at a battlefield. Doesn't seem like it would be fair to not let them have this stuff [at levels 18-21 I find myself leaving behind things I had to kill for to obtain at levels 6-14]. If that is indeed the case, is it worthwhile leaving behind specific things that you want you party to have? I mention this because on occasion I have seen some of my knights unmounted at the start of battles [that is, before anyone has had a chance to unseat them]. And given that I have about one spare horse for every two party members [and not just cheapie horses either], i seems a shame to not be able to provsion the party in a general way - that is, at battle time, they 'should' be able to avail themselves of pool resources in my own and the NPC's inventories. 

Answers, responses, or references would be appreciated.
 
There seems to be some effective upper limits to party size - if you are at the maximum battle size and are not losing many party members in battle [say one knight for every 3-4 battles], is there much point to having a party size larger than 44 or so? If so, is there any way to select which of your own party go into battle with you? [for instance, you are battling in the snow and you'd like to have more archers, or you are battling in hilly forests and would like to have more mounted forces, less archers?].

If your party is too big to all join the battle, move the units you want with you up towards you in party window.

I am also wondering if your party is able to avail itself of the spoils you leave behind at a battlefield. Doesn't seem like it would be fair to not let them have this stuff [at levels 18-21 I find myself leaving behind things I had to kill for to obtain at levels 6-14]. If that is indeed the case, is it worthwhile leaving behind specific things that you want you party to have? I mention this because on occasion I have seen some of my knights unmounted at the start of battles [that is, before anyone has had a chance to unseat them]. And given that I have about one spare horse for every two party members [and not just cheapie horses either], i seems a shame to not be able to provsion the party in a general way - that is, at battle time, they 'should' be able to avail themselves of pool resources in my own and the NPC's inventories.

There is currently a suggestion about the "split the loot" button in the King's Court section, check it out. Yes indeed i dont think its logical for my hired blades to be unmounted when im throwing away several heavy steppe horses. They are as good as dead when unmounted.
 
Again - thanx for the replies.

Remember: nothing is obvious to the truly naive.


I hadn't realized that the party list was in fact an order of battle. I had it backwards.

[EDIT 18mar07 -  see below for a better discussion of this as it is not linear.]
 
1) Giving extra horses to your heroes (Marnid and Borcha is useless, since (I think) their horses never get lamed.
2) There's is NO way you can affect the equipment of non-hero party members. This means leaving loot behind will do nothing other than lose you money.
 
Managing Marnid and Borcha is a challenge, but not too difficult if you are patient. Marnid holds all of my extra horses for party speed [and me, as I get lamed a lot in the early stages]. I allow Borcha one extra horse [as he has inventory slots free anyway].

Once you decide where you want B&M to go, it is occasionally useful to watch how the AI selects from alternatives in their inventory. Typically, when stepping up their attributes and skills, I will leave their old stuff for a while but give them a choice [for instance, a spirited steppe and spirited hunter, or a sword at strength 9 and one at strength 10], to see what they actually use. In general, it appears that the AI's concept of 'best' is related to power first and then range - but NOT encumbrance, and not necessarily optimized. I deliberately limit the number of weapons available [for instance, if Marnid is a swordsman, then he gets one sword and one shield - nothing more,] because I have noticed that they will load up everything they've got if you let them. Keeping this from happening has seemed to be the key to making them more effective at what they are supposed to be doing, and less likely to incur damage while using their 'fallback' solution.' If Borcha is an archer, then I do allot him one 'low-end' sword for point defense - but then I won't give him a shield. This seems to keep him at the outer edges of his bows' range. I also monitor their proficiency development very closely to see if I am getting the desired effect. It takes time to get them where you want them, but it can be done. 

So in this respect, Marnid's Inventory level of 3 is ultimately just a great place to park horse. I use the various chests to hold weapons and armor upgrades or long-term alternatives. [I start buying for levels I haven't achieved long before I get there, and I collect horses - especially battlefield trophies.]

So here's another question - for 'rare' or relatively rare items, does your acquisition of them reduce the availability of them to other parties? For instance, there are very few undamaged Glaives [I've seen three so far in my latest game, where I am at level 23]. I have two of them tucked away. I also have a few other rare items set aside [like +8 Gauntlets]. Does this limit the possibility that opponent players can acquire them?

It's too bad about the battlefield leftovers. The question was more about whether to increase inventory capacity, but I am finding that Inventory of 4 lets me net enough loot to remain profitable, so I don't think I'll chase that skill any further. But it would be nice to be able to influence the quality of equipment available to the enlisted forces.

 
Sturmspawn said:
So here's another question - for 'rare' or relatively rare items, does your acquisition of them reduce the availability of them to other parties? For instance, there are very few undamaged Glaives [I've seen three so far in my latest game, where I am at level 23]. I have two of them tucked away. I also have a few other rare items set aside [like +8 Gauntlets]. Does this limit the possibility that opponent players can acquire them?

It's too bad about the battlefield leftovers. The question was more about whether to increase inventory capacity, but I am finding that Inventory of 4 lets me net enough loot to remain profitable, so I don't think I'll chase that skill any further. But it would be nice to be able to influence the quality of equipment available to the enlisted forces.

There are no unique items in the game that i know of, except the samurai set (search button it if you want it). Merchant's wares and loot is randomly generated, however there are a few very rare weapons/armors out there. One example is Black Khergit Guard's armor (the golden one) - you can't buy it anywhere, and you will likely fight tons of them before finding one. The highest quality weapons (balanced or watered-steel) are fairly rare, as well as the highest quality armor (thick and reinforced).

Oh as for Marnid and Borcha, i find its better to spend their level points on fighting skills at first, as well as give them good equipment - that way they will actually start killing decent amounts of enemies, thus leveling up faster so you can raise their party skills.
 
...Yep - I have seen the 'strange' weapons and armor. Didn't really want to get into that here. It's all right but it doesn't make up for a coherent plan and a lot of practice, and there are comparable or even more balanced units in the conventional set. I do use them in a pinch to equip B&M before I can buy what I need. IMO - The real value of the hidden items is the chests. Nothing like having a few 24-item caches hidden around the country. I could kill for a few more chests - and no, you can't put horses in them. However, unlike Marnid's inventory slots, you don't have to exchange cash to put things in or out [This aspect of Marnid reminds me of a pawn shop]. Inevitably, Marnid can't buy what you put in, but you have to pay full retail for what you take out. Kinda sux. 

I'm basically satisfied with the variety and frequency of items - and as mentioned way up above there, I probably spend as much time shopping as fighting. Here's another relatively rare item [only seen about once per game]: Balanced Fighting Axe [2.5/27c/94/90(str 9)]. Blows away most other axes on its weight alone. 

While the merchant's selections are purely random, I get the sense [having replayed a few battles] that the loot is something of an editorial comment on your performance. Could just be me.

On another topic entirely - have y'all seen the 'Recruit from prisoners' mod. This is definitely worth checking out - it opens up entire new vistas for that bootstrap period when you can't afford a large or talented crew. I can not stress enough - you need this! [Thank you Leprechaun!]  I have also been spending some time following various upgrade paths. Two units you should check out:

Sea Raiders [Str9/Agi11/Int8/Cha8 with iron3/stike2/thrw2/draw2] There are very few other units with this much spec, and none at that price [9 denars a week!]. Next game I'm going to have about half my party of these. I hadn't realized these guys were so powerful. From the git-go I had made a habit of plundering them for their great wealth of loot and using this to arm or fund. They actually seem much easier to defeat than these specs would suggest, but then each raid on a Sea-Raider party usually consumes one or two of my own knights. I think that their key vulnerability is that they are unmounted.

Sword Sisters [top end upgrade from Peasant Woman]. About equivalent to V.Knight, but at 23 denars a week instead of 33 [and a lot cuter, too]. Since I prefer women characters, somewhere in here I plan to build an all-woman party. But that I think will be another thread.

 
Yeah, pretty lame with Manrid. Comrades should be able to give each other presents )

All balanced weapons are fairly rare, but in my game i cant seem to find balanced great axe, even though i saw about every other balanced weapon.

I think that their key vulnerability is that they are unmounted

Actually, Sea Raiders are perfectly designed for unmounted combat. Light leather or chain armor, some athletics skill and a long battle axe are great for killing mounted units. You will find infantry can be very powerful if they stick close together, they will stop cavalry and eat knights on the spot. One by one though, they are easy to defeat.

Sword Sisters are good yes, apart from the fact that alot of them have coursers - coursers can take 2-3 average hits and die....I prefer hired blades or slaver chiefs (last form of manhunters). Raising manhunters to slaver chiefs is a major pain in the butt though - so unless you like collecting prisoners or just think slaver chiefs are awesome (like me) dont do it. It's not practical.

 
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