Sturmspawn
Squire
EDIT: [12mar07]
For those of you encountering this thread for the first time, I would like to offer a brief introduction. My original intent when starting this thread was to 'simply' document my observations and notes, in hopes of helping a few other new players avoid a lot of 'exploration' and dead-end time. I never really expected this to grow to 12 pages, nor to cover a lot of the ground that it does. I had hoped to be a little more structured, but that soon became impossible - which is perfectly all right. I learned a lot from the correspondents on this thread, and on all of the side trips. What I can suggest to the new reader is that you read it in its entirety - even if that means skipping or scanning past some sections that don't interest you at the moment. This is neither a manual nor a play guide, but on the other hand it has become the sort of document that I wish more games included.
I had thought about indexing it, or listing some of what I consider key entries, but it soon became apparent that it wouldn't really be effective. You may want to do that yourself - for instance, to bookmark some of the tables and 'pure' data lists - but I can't bring myself to say "Oh, you could skip this and go on to here." A lot of people have contributed to this thread, and I hope that they continue to do so. Thanks!
End Edit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[EDIT 24mar07]
I did happen to cull a few links into this thread -
partial list of unit specs
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg476267.html#msg476267
upgrade paths in 0.808
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg472426.html#msg472426
base character specs
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg467368.html#msg467368
weapon spec anomalies
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg454161.html#msg454161
power draw
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg458103.html#msg458103
directories and structure
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg469599.html#msg469599
battlesize and AI unit selection
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg470510.html#msg470510
[end edit]
Before I get into the nitty gritty, I should explain that I am not particularly adept at eye-hand coordination games - so my enthusiasm for this game goes beyond charging across the plains effortlessly slicing up opponents. I would also note that I have no experience with versions prior to .808, nor am I fully aware of a lot of the finesse features of game. I do have some observations that may help another newbie, and possibly an old-timer or two, get into the game with less of a learning curve. These observations are not necessarily in order of anything.
1. Issuing orders. You can issue orders in arena play. They help. You definitely should make a point of issuing orders in regular combat, if nothing more than an initial 'everybody charge!' at the outset. The more abstract aspect of this is that you are the leader, and your troops respond to your encouragement and direction. It is not necessary for you to fight the whole battle by yourself. I have actually had a few battles where I did nothing but ride around the perimeter shouting encouragement [while studying what my troops were doing]. One specific case - I find a good bellowed "Charge!" is often effective at breaking up those cluster situations, where ten of your troops ball up to pounce on one poor enemy infantry [all the while getting shot at by enemy archers on the periphery]. One other thing that you do as leader is reconnaissance. Observe and direct.
2. Travel by night/Fight by night. Overall I would suggest that your very first use of skill points would be to get spotting up to three - as your ability to spot and evade opponents in your 'juvenile' levels will help you to pick your battles to match your capabilities. Travel by night is a bit slower, but you get there with less encounters - this is particularly important if you are doing trade. [more on trade below.] I suspect that archery points accumulate faster at night [as the shots are inherently more difficult], but I could be wrong. It is something of a tactical challenge to keep the moon behind you when setting up a shot.
3. Watch your encumbrance. The significance of encumbrance is not to be underestimated - your ability to wield a weapon, especially the lower end items, and especially when you are at 'juvenile' strength, is very much affected by this. Heavy armor, at times, just can't get out of its own way. Better to be lighter and agile and strike at maximum effect than to be protected against the strikes of your opponents. If you are a berserker, carry just your one weapon. If you are an archer, you will probably need a sword as well. Consider NOT carrying a shield [learn to dodge and weave when you move]. Good light armor will be sufficient. Plan on striking and not getting hit too often [in this game the best defense is offense].
4. In battle, never stop moving - and assume that your opponents are doing the same. While berserking on the ground is a lot of fun, individual maneuver is critical, and horses amplify this capacity. You will even see this in one-on-one in Zendar training: your ability to outmaneuver your opponent is just as effective [if not moreso] than your ability to block. I discovered that I never rightclick.
5. Shopping. I don't know why, but of the three games I have played at length, I prefer female characters. They fight just as well, but they shop better. If you see an item that is rare [and you will learn to recognize them], buy them. Do not wait. Case in point - the reinforced steppe hat, weight 1.0, head armor 10, is rare if not unique. Khergit bows, just a tad faster than Strong bows are also rare, and you may never get a second chance to acquire them. Even if you do not have the required strength or attributes for an item [yet], put them in your war chest [the one in Zendar, or one of the others] when you can. I never pass a town without shopping. I suspect that I spend as much time shopping as fighting.
6. Horses. Along with shopping, the right horse can make a significant difference. Subjectively, the 'right' horse can be as meaningful as a couple of skill points in riding. The horses you practice on are horrendous, and in retrospect it is amazing that you can even deliver a passing blow from some of them. Courtly ladies start out with a spirited courser. Nice, but not very hardy and prone to getting lamed. By all means get your riding up to three and get a spirited steppe horse. You may never ride anything else unless you get into jousting on a charger. Those maneuver values are very meaningful, and the difference between 10 and 11 is significant - as significant as a riding skill point or two. As far as speed and capacity versus inventory size goes, while I ride steppe horses, I tend to have about 1 spirited courser for every 5 or 6 inventory slots. That's probably overkill, but I do like to be able to evade an enemy I do not wish to fight. I have also been known to switch off between steppe horses for battle and spirited coursers for overland travel speed - again this seems superstitious, but a slight difference does seem to exist.
7. Cheap provisioning. Sea Raiders seem to have a lot of very expensive, very good, and very cumbersome armor. Whacking a few of these bands is a good way to provision your companions without a big cash outlay. However, I have found that downgrading them as soon as cash-feasible from heavy mail taken from sea raiders to lighter, less cumbersome armor results in better performance - they get damaged less and accumulate more experience [fight more efficiently]. This is what put me onto studying the effect of encumbrance. The fact that Sea Raiders are so easily defeated despite their good armor tends to substantiate the encumbrance penalty. Of course, this is just a matter of philosophy and approach. But remember, you will have a band of ever-increasing size and strength, and most of your knights will have heavy armor - and the strength and weapon points to overcome it. You do not have to face a dark knight on your own, unless you insist. Back to the Sea Raiders for a minute - even though you don't wish to keep the loot you take from them, they are a great source of cash income. The bad news is that most of the merchants in the vicinity of your Sea Raider battles won't have enough cash to buy out what you want to sell. I have a lot of respect for these SR's - I never take them prisoner.
8. Companions. There are some discussions regarding the capabilities and values of Marnid and Borcha [M&B - where did they get that?]. All I can say is that this is what you have to work with. M&B's starting values are different depending on which character you start with - so it is rather difficult to generalize about them. My suggestion is that you develop them as complementary skillsets with respect to your own character. For instance - if you are an archer, make one of them a swordsman and the other a crossbowman. One thing that they are good for is to cover your activity on the battlefield ["Companions - follow me"] without having your whole party follow you around. I also suggest that you obtain weapons, armor, and horses for them before you have them join your party. Divvying up functionality between them is also an interesting puzzle. If one of them has intelligence, then by all means make one of them the wound/surgery/firstaid carrier - but don't waste attribute points on intelligence or charisma upgrades on them. As with your own character, it is important that you closely manage encumbrance on them. Do not give them more weapons than they need, and skip the gratuitous shields unless you think they need 'em [for instance, a swordsman Marnid might have only one sword and and a fast shield - the other weapon slots are not used]. It is also important to monitor their development [by watching them accumulate weapon-point upgrades by experience] to see if they are actually using the weapons you give them. Give them the best horses that they can use. In developing Borcha as a crossbowman, I expect to see a crossbow improvement of one or two on every battle. If this does not happen, I look to find out why.
9. Spending your attribute-skill-weapons points. Dunno about you, but I like to wait until I have about 5 or 6 attribute points to spend on my character, with a few more available on M&B, before I use them. This means I get to see the characters perform over a considerable amount of time to discover where reinforcement is needed. I often discover that I have as many as 7 or 8 attribute points that I am in no hurry to use. I suspect [but cannot prove] that experience rewards are more generous to lower level and lower attributed characters. Another way to look at it is that I would like to reach a weapon master threshhold on one strength/agility set before increasing both weapon-master and power-draw/strike. This is purely superstitious, but I mention it as it seems to be a pattern in my notes.
10. Difficulty levels. It is an outstanding design feature that you can adjust difficulty levels by several characteristics - for instance, you can increase the battle size [i.e. permit your opponents to field a larger force than your own] OR the AI's battle skill, or a number of other aspects. This permits you to tune up the difficulty to develop specific aspects of your own character and party. Be sure to experiment with this.
11. Pick your battles. Sure, you can just take on any party that wishes to fight, but I tend to select battles that offer specific gains [look at the prisoner roster and see what you might gain, or look at the opponent type to see what kind of battle it will be and what kind of loot they have].
12. Picking sides. I am absolutely on the fence about this. Most of my characters' personae are such that they just aren't joiners. There is a lot of forum discussion about this. I make a point of keeping an even number of S and V members in my party.
Master trade route
The table below outlines a route with a partial repetition.
the SEQuence indicates the order in which you visit each town, what to buy and where you sell it. The idea was to maximize the utility of your inventory slots. In theory - disregarding expenses for tavern stays and party food, a single inventory slot should yield 491 denars net gain after traversing the circuit once. Of course, this assumes that you can afford some of the items [spice costs 300+ a unit], and that the items are available [there is usually at least three of the towns' highlight items, but don't count on Praven always having lots of ale to haul to Khudan for a big profit on iterated transits]. You will need at least 500 denars per slot to start this - I like to work three slots. With a fast horse and good spotting capability, you can do this on our own. I like to take a new character around the circuit twice with no party - just to shop and sightsee. Working three slots for trade won't slow you down much, and after two circuits you will have about 3000 denars to work with. The AFFinity column shows which towns are part of which side's domain [Swadian or Vaegir].
Seq. Aff. Go To Item Sell At
1 I Zendar Tools Tulga
2 / 10 V Tulga Spice Praven
3 / 11 S Praven Ale Khudan
4 / 12 V Khudan Furs Suno
5 / 13 S Suno Oil Rivacheg
6 / 14 V Rivachg Meat 7-Veluca
15-Curaw
7 S Veluca Wine Werchag
8 V Wercheg Fish Uxkhal
9 S Uxkhal Wheat Tulga
15 V Curaw Iron Sargoth
16 S Sargoth Linen Halmar
17 V Halmar Pottery Jelkala
18 S Jelkala Velvet [Reyvadin]
19 I Saltmine Salt for Zendar
20 V Reyvadin Wool for Tihr
21 S Tihr [Fish]
Zendar
I Four-Way
S Culmarr Castle
V Rhadogir Castle
This next table is just a quick reference to what a town sells and buys.
Buy Town Sell
Tools Zendar Salt
Spice Tulga Tools
Spice Tulga Wheat
Ale Praven Spice
Furs Khudan Ale
Oil Suno Furs
Meat Rivach Oil
Wine Veluca Meat
Iron Curaw Meat
Fish Werchag Wine
Fish Tihr Wool
Wheat Uxkhal Fish
Wool Reyvad Velvet
Velvet Jelkala Pottery
Pottery Halmar Linen
Linen Sargoth Iron
Salt Saltmine ---
Saltmine & Zendar have Slave Traders
For those of you encountering this thread for the first time, I would like to offer a brief introduction. My original intent when starting this thread was to 'simply' document my observations and notes, in hopes of helping a few other new players avoid a lot of 'exploration' and dead-end time. I never really expected this to grow to 12 pages, nor to cover a lot of the ground that it does. I had hoped to be a little more structured, but that soon became impossible - which is perfectly all right. I learned a lot from the correspondents on this thread, and on all of the side trips. What I can suggest to the new reader is that you read it in its entirety - even if that means skipping or scanning past some sections that don't interest you at the moment. This is neither a manual nor a play guide, but on the other hand it has become the sort of document that I wish more games included.
I had thought about indexing it, or listing some of what I consider key entries, but it soon became apparent that it wouldn't really be effective. You may want to do that yourself - for instance, to bookmark some of the tables and 'pure' data lists - but I can't bring myself to say "Oh, you could skip this and go on to here." A lot of people have contributed to this thread, and I hope that they continue to do so. Thanks!
End Edit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[EDIT 24mar07]
I did happen to cull a few links into this thread -
partial list of unit specs
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg476267.html#msg476267
upgrade paths in 0.808
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg472426.html#msg472426
base character specs
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg467368.html#msg467368
weapon spec anomalies
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg454161.html#msg454161
power draw
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg458103.html#msg458103
directories and structure
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg469599.html#msg469599
battlesize and AI unit selection
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,20514.msg470510.html#msg470510
[end edit]
Before I get into the nitty gritty, I should explain that I am not particularly adept at eye-hand coordination games - so my enthusiasm for this game goes beyond charging across the plains effortlessly slicing up opponents. I would also note that I have no experience with versions prior to .808, nor am I fully aware of a lot of the finesse features of game. I do have some observations that may help another newbie, and possibly an old-timer or two, get into the game with less of a learning curve. These observations are not necessarily in order of anything.
1. Issuing orders. You can issue orders in arena play. They help. You definitely should make a point of issuing orders in regular combat, if nothing more than an initial 'everybody charge!' at the outset. The more abstract aspect of this is that you are the leader, and your troops respond to your encouragement and direction. It is not necessary for you to fight the whole battle by yourself. I have actually had a few battles where I did nothing but ride around the perimeter shouting encouragement [while studying what my troops were doing]. One specific case - I find a good bellowed "Charge!" is often effective at breaking up those cluster situations, where ten of your troops ball up to pounce on one poor enemy infantry [all the while getting shot at by enemy archers on the periphery]. One other thing that you do as leader is reconnaissance. Observe and direct.
2. Travel by night/Fight by night. Overall I would suggest that your very first use of skill points would be to get spotting up to three - as your ability to spot and evade opponents in your 'juvenile' levels will help you to pick your battles to match your capabilities. Travel by night is a bit slower, but you get there with less encounters - this is particularly important if you are doing trade. [more on trade below.] I suspect that archery points accumulate faster at night [as the shots are inherently more difficult], but I could be wrong. It is something of a tactical challenge to keep the moon behind you when setting up a shot.
3. Watch your encumbrance. The significance of encumbrance is not to be underestimated - your ability to wield a weapon, especially the lower end items, and especially when you are at 'juvenile' strength, is very much affected by this. Heavy armor, at times, just can't get out of its own way. Better to be lighter and agile and strike at maximum effect than to be protected against the strikes of your opponents. If you are a berserker, carry just your one weapon. If you are an archer, you will probably need a sword as well. Consider NOT carrying a shield [learn to dodge and weave when you move]. Good light armor will be sufficient. Plan on striking and not getting hit too often [in this game the best defense is offense].
4. In battle, never stop moving - and assume that your opponents are doing the same. While berserking on the ground is a lot of fun, individual maneuver is critical, and horses amplify this capacity. You will even see this in one-on-one in Zendar training: your ability to outmaneuver your opponent is just as effective [if not moreso] than your ability to block. I discovered that I never rightclick.
5. Shopping. I don't know why, but of the three games I have played at length, I prefer female characters. They fight just as well, but they shop better. If you see an item that is rare [and you will learn to recognize them], buy them. Do not wait. Case in point - the reinforced steppe hat, weight 1.0, head armor 10, is rare if not unique. Khergit bows, just a tad faster than Strong bows are also rare, and you may never get a second chance to acquire them. Even if you do not have the required strength or attributes for an item [yet], put them in your war chest [the one in Zendar, or one of the others] when you can. I never pass a town without shopping. I suspect that I spend as much time shopping as fighting.
6. Horses. Along with shopping, the right horse can make a significant difference. Subjectively, the 'right' horse can be as meaningful as a couple of skill points in riding. The horses you practice on are horrendous, and in retrospect it is amazing that you can even deliver a passing blow from some of them. Courtly ladies start out with a spirited courser. Nice, but not very hardy and prone to getting lamed. By all means get your riding up to three and get a spirited steppe horse. You may never ride anything else unless you get into jousting on a charger. Those maneuver values are very meaningful, and the difference between 10 and 11 is significant - as significant as a riding skill point or two. As far as speed and capacity versus inventory size goes, while I ride steppe horses, I tend to have about 1 spirited courser for every 5 or 6 inventory slots. That's probably overkill, but I do like to be able to evade an enemy I do not wish to fight. I have also been known to switch off between steppe horses for battle and spirited coursers for overland travel speed - again this seems superstitious, but a slight difference does seem to exist.
7. Cheap provisioning. Sea Raiders seem to have a lot of very expensive, very good, and very cumbersome armor. Whacking a few of these bands is a good way to provision your companions without a big cash outlay. However, I have found that downgrading them as soon as cash-feasible from heavy mail taken from sea raiders to lighter, less cumbersome armor results in better performance - they get damaged less and accumulate more experience [fight more efficiently]. This is what put me onto studying the effect of encumbrance. The fact that Sea Raiders are so easily defeated despite their good armor tends to substantiate the encumbrance penalty. Of course, this is just a matter of philosophy and approach. But remember, you will have a band of ever-increasing size and strength, and most of your knights will have heavy armor - and the strength and weapon points to overcome it. You do not have to face a dark knight on your own, unless you insist. Back to the Sea Raiders for a minute - even though you don't wish to keep the loot you take from them, they are a great source of cash income. The bad news is that most of the merchants in the vicinity of your Sea Raider battles won't have enough cash to buy out what you want to sell. I have a lot of respect for these SR's - I never take them prisoner.
8. Companions. There are some discussions regarding the capabilities and values of Marnid and Borcha [M&B - where did they get that?]. All I can say is that this is what you have to work with. M&B's starting values are different depending on which character you start with - so it is rather difficult to generalize about them. My suggestion is that you develop them as complementary skillsets with respect to your own character. For instance - if you are an archer, make one of them a swordsman and the other a crossbowman. One thing that they are good for is to cover your activity on the battlefield ["Companions - follow me"] without having your whole party follow you around. I also suggest that you obtain weapons, armor, and horses for them before you have them join your party. Divvying up functionality between them is also an interesting puzzle. If one of them has intelligence, then by all means make one of them the wound/surgery/firstaid carrier - but don't waste attribute points on intelligence or charisma upgrades on them. As with your own character, it is important that you closely manage encumbrance on them. Do not give them more weapons than they need, and skip the gratuitous shields unless you think they need 'em [for instance, a swordsman Marnid might have only one sword and and a fast shield - the other weapon slots are not used]. It is also important to monitor their development [by watching them accumulate weapon-point upgrades by experience] to see if they are actually using the weapons you give them. Give them the best horses that they can use. In developing Borcha as a crossbowman, I expect to see a crossbow improvement of one or two on every battle. If this does not happen, I look to find out why.
9. Spending your attribute-skill-weapons points. Dunno about you, but I like to wait until I have about 5 or 6 attribute points to spend on my character, with a few more available on M&B, before I use them. This means I get to see the characters perform over a considerable amount of time to discover where reinforcement is needed. I often discover that I have as many as 7 or 8 attribute points that I am in no hurry to use. I suspect [but cannot prove] that experience rewards are more generous to lower level and lower attributed characters. Another way to look at it is that I would like to reach a weapon master threshhold on one strength/agility set before increasing both weapon-master and power-draw/strike. This is purely superstitious, but I mention it as it seems to be a pattern in my notes.
10. Difficulty levels. It is an outstanding design feature that you can adjust difficulty levels by several characteristics - for instance, you can increase the battle size [i.e. permit your opponents to field a larger force than your own] OR the AI's battle skill, or a number of other aspects. This permits you to tune up the difficulty to develop specific aspects of your own character and party. Be sure to experiment with this.
11. Pick your battles. Sure, you can just take on any party that wishes to fight, but I tend to select battles that offer specific gains [look at the prisoner roster and see what you might gain, or look at the opponent type to see what kind of battle it will be and what kind of loot they have].
12. Picking sides. I am absolutely on the fence about this. Most of my characters' personae are such that they just aren't joiners. There is a lot of forum discussion about this. I make a point of keeping an even number of S and V members in my party.
Master trade route
The table below outlines a route with a partial repetition.
the SEQuence indicates the order in which you visit each town, what to buy and where you sell it. The idea was to maximize the utility of your inventory slots. In theory - disregarding expenses for tavern stays and party food, a single inventory slot should yield 491 denars net gain after traversing the circuit once. Of course, this assumes that you can afford some of the items [spice costs 300+ a unit], and that the items are available [there is usually at least three of the towns' highlight items, but don't count on Praven always having lots of ale to haul to Khudan for a big profit on iterated transits]. You will need at least 500 denars per slot to start this - I like to work three slots. With a fast horse and good spotting capability, you can do this on our own. I like to take a new character around the circuit twice with no party - just to shop and sightsee. Working three slots for trade won't slow you down much, and after two circuits you will have about 3000 denars to work with. The AFFinity column shows which towns are part of which side's domain [Swadian or Vaegir].
Seq. Aff. Go To Item Sell At
1 I Zendar Tools Tulga
2 / 10 V Tulga Spice Praven
3 / 11 S Praven Ale Khudan
4 / 12 V Khudan Furs Suno
5 / 13 S Suno Oil Rivacheg
6 / 14 V Rivachg Meat 7-Veluca
15-Curaw
7 S Veluca Wine Werchag
8 V Wercheg Fish Uxkhal
9 S Uxkhal Wheat Tulga
15 V Curaw Iron Sargoth
16 S Sargoth Linen Halmar
17 V Halmar Pottery Jelkala
18 S Jelkala Velvet [Reyvadin]
19 I Saltmine Salt for Zendar
20 V Reyvadin Wool for Tihr
21 S Tihr [Fish]
Zendar
I Four-Way
S Culmarr Castle
V Rhadogir Castle
This next table is just a quick reference to what a town sells and buys.
Buy Town Sell
Tools Zendar Salt
Spice Tulga Tools
Spice Tulga Wheat
Ale Praven Spice
Furs Khudan Ale
Oil Suno Furs
Meat Rivach Oil
Wine Veluca Meat
Iron Curaw Meat
Fish Werchag Wine
Fish Tihr Wool
Wheat Uxkhal Fish
Wool Reyvad Velvet
Velvet Jelkala Pottery
Pottery Halmar Linen
Linen Sargoth Iron
Salt Saltmine ---
Saltmine & Zendar have Slave Traders