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The Missile Query

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Shaxx

Squire
Starting up 1.38 and doing the usual new version routine of porting my changes from the last version to the new one. But I am unsure about missiles this time...

Javelins: Previously at a 75% increase in damage and all changed to piercing damage. Considering doubling them rather than 75%... The 75% increase did create some 'headshot' moments with base javelins that were one-shots, which was ideal, but sometimes you would walk around with one in your chest. Yet further increase could reduce the usefulness of higher tier thrown weapons as the increase in damage could become redundant and there are less of them. On the other hand, I could just keep them in the same ratio with bows and do a steady 50% increase.

Fransica's: These would have to match the javelin increase for balance (and also be made piercing, like melee axes).

Bows: Previously at a 50% increase in damage, it seemed wrong to boost throwing weapons and leave this sitting on the bench. The question is, does that make them too viable for the period where they were not heavily used? Is the 50% increase only needed on the Longbows and Composite bows? Or would that just way over power the Britons...

Slings: I am pretty confident in a 50% increase in damage, or matching whatever the increase is for bows.

Shields: Related to missiles because, well, ever had 8 javelins stuck in your shield? In reality one would be the end of your shield, that was the origin of the javelin, to make your shield useless. So... cut durability in half? The only issue here is the changes would be tedious as there are quite a few shields. Regardless there is also some historical precedent for shields in this period to break easily in melee combat (3 good hits with a sword, etcetera).

Thoughts, discuss!
 

Froggystyle

Sergeant
What facts are you basing these values on?

Also I think they have rebalanced how piercing/cut/blunt reacts to different armors.
I can't play Brytenwalda atm, so I can't tell you myself.

Shaxx said:
that was the origin of the javelin, to make your shield useless.
And I thought this is was the orgin of the shield, to protect you from projectiles. And an additional
protection in close combat.

I don't see why 1 javelin would break a shield, but I understand that it can be heavy carrying
around on a thick shield with 10 extra kgs of javelins.
 

aodhanofgael

Veteran
WB
javelin would unbalance it making it effectively useless in close combat. THe shield was for defence against slings and arrows wich did not way as much as javelins.
 

killer110

Sergeant Knight
WBWF&SNW
Javelins were also quite easy to pull out and throwback, unlike the pilum where it was practicaly impossbile to do either.
 

Shaxx

Squire
Froggystyle said:
What facts are you basing these values on?

Also I think they have rebalanced how piercing/cut/blunt reacts to different armors.
I can't play Brytenwalda atm, so I can't tell you myself.

Shaxx said:
that was the origin of the javelin, to make your shield useless.
And I thought this is was the orgin of the shield, to protect you from projectiles. And an additional
protection in close combat.

I don't see why 1 javelin would break a shield, but I understand that it can be heavy carrying
around on a thick shield with 10 extra kgs of javelins.

They did do some rebalancing, yes, mainly making piercing damage more powerful, blunt damage less and cutting about the same against armor.

Also, I mentioned 'break' in reference to it getting mangled in melee, not by thrown weapons, which would mainly make the shield too unwieldy.

As for the facts, mainly just common sense... having a javelin hanging out of your chest should not be a workable injury in combat. The same for shields as mentioned above, however, these values are indeed up for debate, this is why I made this post.

So cough em up, your opinions.

killer110 said:
Javelins were also quite easy to pull out and throwback, unlike the pilum where it was practicaly impossbile to do either.

Do you feel twice the current damage would be too much?
 

arsenic_vengeur

Knight at Arms
Javelins do piercing damage? In game it feels like they are useless against good armors.

Regarding the thorwing stuff effect on shield, I'd give it the "bonus against shield" thing that axes have in multiplayer Native.
 

saxon80

Veteran
arsenic_vengeur said:
Javelins do piercing damage? In game it feels like they are useless against good armors.

Regarding the thorwing stuff effect on shield, I'd give it the "bonus against shield" thing that axes have in multiplayer Native.

javelin already has the "bonus against shields" trait. I think its a decision between gameplay and "realism". I agree that throwing weapons should get better, but the idea of a shield breaking every 2 seconds also seems a little bit excessive. But i would like to see this in action and how it would affect gameplay...
 

Froggystyle

Sergeant
arsenic_vengeur said:
Javelins do piercing damage? In game it feels like they are useless against good armors.

Regarding the thorwing stuff effect on shield, I'd give it the "bonus against shield" thing that axes have in multiplayer Native.
Nope, all missiles seemed to do cut damage for some reason.

If I would change anything I would change missiles to Piercing.
Damage increase: Arrows 0%, Javelins 10%, heavier thrown weapons 20%
Slings should stay the same but a small nerf to to accuracy and thrown weapons more accurate,
it's after all easier to hit a target from 20 meters with a thrown weapon then a sling after what
I have experienced.

If it was possible, I think each point of Power throw should give a penalty to accuracy, maybe 20
thrown weapon skill per point. Because the harder you throw the less likely you will hit your target,
unless the javelin is more heavy or/and you have great precision in your throw
balanced to your strenght.

Shields should be slightly weaker, but not much, changing the missiles from cut to piercing already
makes them break shields faster.

The thing with javelins vs. shields, not presented in Mount&Blade is that, the curved shape of the
shields would redirect the javelins, and they would hit one of your neighbours,
or if not holding your shield steady it will hit you in the face, belly or leg.
This is a small reason I think, why pavises mostly were flat, to be an immediate stop
to missiles. But in Hand2Hand, immediate stops were less appreciated, you would want
to steer off the heavy zweihander or 2H axe rather then stopping it, other weapons as well.
 

Shaxx

Squire
Froggystyle said:
arsenic_vengeur said:
Javelins do piercing damage? In game it feels like they are useless against good armors.

Regarding the thorwing stuff effect on shield, I'd give it the "bonus against shield" thing that axes have in multiplayer Native.
Nope, all missiles seemed to do cut damage for some reason.

If I would change anything I would change missiles to Piercing.
Damage increase: Arrows 0%, Javelins 10%, heavier thrown weapons 20%
Slings should stay the same but a small nerf to to accuracy and thrown weapons more accurate,
it's after all easier to hit a target from 20 meters with a thrown weapon then a sling after what
I have experienced.

If it was possible, I think each point of Power throw should give a penalty to accuracy, maybe 20
thrown weapon skill per point. Because the harder you throw the less likely you will hit your target,
unless the javelin is more heavy or/and you have great precision in your throw
balanced to your strenght.

Shields should be slightly weaker, but not much, changing the missiles from cut to piercing already
makes them break shields faster.

The thing with javelins vs. shields, not presented in Mount&Blade is that, the curved shape of the
shields would redirect the javelins, and they would hit one of your neighbours,
or if not holding your shield steady it will hit you in the face, belly or leg.
This is a small reason I think, why pavises mostly were flat, to be an immediate stop
to missiles. But in Hand2Hand, immediate stops were less appreciated, you would want
to steer off the heavy zweihander or 2H axe rather then stopping it, other weapons as well.

I doubt there will ever be a game detailed enough to take into account the physics of the shape of your shield and how it reacts differently to melee and missiles, with the latter potentially causing 'splatter damage' with the right shield.

But yes, bare minimum would be to change them to piercing damage. It would be hard however for me to mod thrown weapon accuracy. I cannot get into game right now even to check if they have an 'accuracy' score, which to my memory, they do not.

And for your quoted damage increase values, what about... 25% Bows/Slings, 50% Javelins, 100% Heavier Thrown Weapons?

It should not over-power bows, but disallow carrying four of them in your chest, javelins would be deadlier, higher tier thrown weapons will be brutal and still useful despite being less of them.
 
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