The Midnight Watchmen [TMW] - UNDEFEATED SINCE 2015

hows life

  • yea

    Votes: 16 12.3%
  • haha oh

    Votes: 25 19.2%
  • great

    Votes: 16 12.3%
  • wish she was still h- uh, good

    Votes: 27 20.8%
  • bad

    Votes: 21 16.2%
  • same

    Votes: 25 19.2%

  • Total voters
    130
  • Poll closed .

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Giving my vote to poodle. Never liked it as a nickname for him, but it's the first one that I associate with oodle so thats that.
 
While I disagree with the severity of the punishment, some punishment was deserved (Arys acknowledges that). I also don't see where Arys got the idea that such mods are OK in NA, 'cause that was never the case when I played. If that's actually true, then what's the reasoning for allowing it? It's an unfair advantage, whether the specific advantages the NC admins posted are accurate or not. At the very least it can make it easier to spot people around corners if they have projectiles sticking out of them, and easier to find your missed projectiles later. It doesn't really matter how much of an advantage it is, but rather if it's an advantage at all.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that if the admins wanted to come down hard they should have barred Arys from playing in future matches and let the team pick a new captain, and they absolutely should not have retroactively punished the team. Getting caught in one match does not necessarily imply that you were violating rules in all previous matches. Punish for the match in which rules were violated. Any more is unfair to the other players and spiteful. I'm glad Finland stated their desire for the previous results to stand, but they shouldn't have had to say so in the first place. Rematch/default win in the match Arys was caught is debatable, and I wouldn't necessarily vote either way if I had a vote, rather I'd expect them to take into consideration the rest of the tournament & its schedule. Sometimes it's better for the tournament to have a default win just so the rest of it can proceed, but when possible a rematch will yield more valid results for the competition as a whole. What the admins have posted up til now shows me they don't care as much about the validity of their tournament results as they do about punitive justice.

I would have posted as much in the NC suggestion thread were it not locked. It probably won't be unlocked until they've made their final decision, so anything I could post then would be ignored.
 
I'm fairly sure most people agree Arys deserved to be punished, but I don't think Arys suggested that those mods were alright in NA. The only discussion I saw about the legitimacy of jav textures was from Trebron (which I do agree with to some degree). I agree that it does provide a small advantage, but that was not enough to warrant a default on two matches.

We have Oodle as a co-captain, so we would have been fine to just have him lead the team.

No one noticed the textures in screenshots until the second match, but they were also in the first match. (Which no one noticed until much later after the discussion started)

I also wanted to mention that by giving us two default losses, the competition of the tournament is also put at stake, as it completely dissuades our team from playing out our last match with any sort of desire to play decently.

As for a final decision, I doubt they're going to change their mind, and I doubt they'll even accept Finland's request.
 
I also just found that Arys has screenshots of the match vs. Finland in which his textured javelins are visible. Thanks for correcting me.

Anyway, Arys did say he thought it was ok, and this is where: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,345149.msg8287771.html#msg8287771
I just assumed it wasn't prohibited, because it's allowed in North America, honest mistake, truly sorry.
So the real question is, should the entire team be punished for the actions of one? There was no vigilance by the admins or players regarding the match vs. Finland, which doesn't mean Arys' actions are OK but it does mean the results of that match were already accepted despite them. If Finland wants the match results to stand, then there's nothing to argue. It's up to the teams involved & the admins that review the screenshots to catch that sort of thing, and if they don't then they are also at fault. Again, that doesn't make Arys' actions acceptable, but it does mean they're selectively punishing one party when everyone involved is partly responsible for implicitly allowing it through negligence. The best thing to do is not punish anyone in that situation, because all parties are at fault to some degree (NA for the violation, FIN for not reporting it, the admin that reviewed the screenshots for not reporting it). The rules state:
Concerned players must post their screenshot within 30 minutes of the match ending on the forums or send it to a tournament admin or the match referee.
While this rule isn't written terribly well, it can imply that concerns which aren't posted within 30 minutes of the match ending are to be disregarded, as sufficient vigilance is then assumed.

For the match vs. Austria, where the issue was reported, a case can be made for selective punishment. In this case, one team was vigilant and caught a rule violation & reported it. I don't know if they did it within the 30 minute window, but I'll assume the admins are lax on that time restriction as long as a complaint is made reasonably soon. The rules state:
Every player that is found to have modified texture files or using game modifications will be banned from the tournament.
...
If a player is found to have broken any of the rules during a match and the admins determine that a significant advantage was gained, that player’s team will forfeit the relevant rounds.
So, naturally Arys should be banned from play. That isn't in question because the rules are very clear in that regard. The question is what qualifies as a "significant advantage." Unfortunately this is is not quantifiable, so it's based on interpretation and opinion. For what it's worth, this is an example of a poorly written rule that just makes things harder than necessary. We could debate for weeks about the exact advantages of blue javelins and whether or not they're significant, but we may never reach consensus. So, it's basically up to a vote of opinions. The problem here is that the punishment listed is absolute (forfeiture of relevant rounds, again poor wording but w/e) while opinions may not be. It may very well be the case that some admins are on the fence about whether it's significant or not, but if forced to vote yay/nay their grey position becomes black or white, thus unrepresentative of their true feelings. If given the option of a scale-able punishment system, the resulting punishment would surely be less severe.

I sent a message to that effect to the admins. I'll post it here if there's any interest from you guys in seeing how I advocated for the NA team.
 
Orion is correct in what he's saying also, Arni is a great example of a person who's DDOSed, played when he was banned, cheated and has done many other things that have caused a HUGE impact towards tournaments. When Arni was removed there were NO defaults given, in-fact the only thing that happened was Arni getting removed. So yes, please someone tell me how blue javelins is now worse than having Arni on your team?
 
trot888 said:
Orion is correct in what he's saying also, Arni is a great example of a person who's DDOSed, played when he was banned, cheated and has done many other things that have caused a HUGE impact towards tournaments. When Arni was removed there were NO defaults given, in-fact the only thing that happened was Arni getting removed. So yes, please someone tell me how blue javelins is now worse than having Arni on your team?
 
The NC team got the best result you could have possibly hoped for. Please pick a good replacement for Arys so you can be strong going forward. Appreciate that things could have been much worse for the team, and that you've been given a shot at winning again.
 
I don't know where Arys got the idea of colored javs being okay in NA, and given Sota getting caught in the past using pink javs, Arys absolutely should have known not to use colored javs himself.

That being said, punishing the entire team with the 2 0-12 losses is extreme (edit: Just saw they changed it from 0-12 to whatever the results were). Ban Arys from future matches? Sure. Essentially ban the NA team as a whole? Eh...

The way some people are acting in that thread isn't helping either. I really doubt calling them autists will make them think "Wow, I didn't realize I was being autistic (because that is how autism works.) Thank you for notifying me, let me just reverse my decision now."
 
Rurin said:
The way some people are acting in that thread isn't helping either. I really doubt calling them autists will make them think "Wow, I didn't realize I was being autistic (because that is how autism works.) Thank you for notifying me, let me just reverse my decision now."
 
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