The Mead Hall

[Leifr Eiríksson]

Fancy!
I can pull out pie charts too.

Where are you from Halwende? I am from Nottinghamshire, although my Father's family are firm Yorkshire-bred stock and my Mother's are a few generations short of Ireland. My surname is Anglo-Norman through and through and is most fitting given my Fathers descent of traditional work.
However; you're putting an awful lot of stock into a handful of sketchy coincidences. Do you have an actual family history stretching back to the 1200s or are you playing with conjecture?

 

[Halwende]

Spoiler

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Very childish, and not even a eligible response that adresses the facts provided, you Liberals really can't stand a atoms weight of rationality or logic can you?
Surnames do not prove anything, nor are they a reliable way of telling someones DNA. You your self are mostly Germanic, if not totally Germanic, with your mothers ancestors being Irish.
Look, I was given a question and I answered it, take it or leave it. Eitherway, I unfortunately see the thread going of onto another irrelevant discussion.
But yes, my Surname dates back long before 1200.

 

[Leifr Eiríksson]

Very childish, and not even a eligible response that adresses the facts provided, you Liberals really can't stand a atoms weight of rationality or logic can you?

I'm a liberal? You clearly need to spend some time with me in TeamSpeak.  What facts have you provided other than a pie-chart diagram of Europe and that you fit into a rough ethno-sketch of your supposed ancestors? This reminds me of something... I think there was a recent thread in the Sage's Guild where DNA analysis turned out numerous Russian Nationalists, or something thereabouts...

Surnames do not prove anything, nor are they a reliable way of telling someones DNA. You your self are mostly Germanic, if not totally Germanic, with your mothers ancestors being Irish.

I come from one of the most Germanic areas of the UK, I grew up a tall, blonde haired blue eyed Germanic manly man, along with that I have a Anglo-Saxon surname, that's how I know.

Uh? Please; do decide if surnames reflect descent or not. Thanks.
I'm not looking to start a fight Halwende. This type of discussion doesn't even warrant the thread, it belongs elsewhere (such as Stormfront). But again I ask; what area of the UK are you from? Grimsby? Hull? Yorkshire? How are you aware that your surname strictly belongs to your line of descent and not passed on through some dirty bastard child of another 'Saxon'? Would it offend you if, truly, you were nothing more than a piece of Scottish slag left over from some Danish rape? The moment anyone throws out genetics and DNA charts to prove their heritage the sooner we step closer to ostracizing, defaming and vilifying others whom aren't so lucky to be Germanic menly men.

You need to know specifically regarding one's family history before you can even attempt to claim any form of 'pure-blood ethnicity of the righteous Germanic peoples'.

Good day, Sirrah.

* I was very careful here to avoid invoking Godwin's Law.

 

[hrotha]

Genetics should be a tool to understand historical migrations and settlement patterns, not to be proud about something silly like someone's racial heritage. Ethnicity is cultural, not genetic.

Furthermore, genetics maps tell us a lot about broad patterns, nothing about a specific individual or family. And that particular map isn't even very good or detailed. I've seen much better.

 

[sotijalo]

Well we Finns have it easy as we weren't worth to be given that viking power-seed... Worthless I say!

 

[darthtaco123]

You guys shouldn't throw the L word around like that! There are children on these forums!

 

[Harkon Haakonson]

"Germanic manly man"... Oh boy.

 

[Celtichugs]

I'm Celtic.

 

[Éadric]

I would disagree that ethnicity is purely cultural. While ethnicity doesn’t necessarily have a genetic aspect, it usually does. Meaning that those with whom you share a culture are usually those closest to you in blood. Of course this might be less so in border areas, and it is certainly less so in the Modern Age, with its unparallelled migrations and drastic melting pot (which I for one hate), but in general it holds.

As for DNA haplogroups, they can be rather useful for the discernment of the history of peoples, provided you are very careful in your interpretation. Several such studies have shown a clear divide between England on the one hand and Scotland and (especially) Wales on the other. England having a relatively large share of haplogroups typically associated with ancient Germanic peoples on the continent, specifically those living in what are now the Northern Netherlands, Northern Germany and Western Denmark, homelands of the Frisians, Saxons, Angles and Jutes. However, even England has its fair share of Celtic haplogroups, especially the farther West you go.

To fathom your deep ancestry you will need to study both your family tree and the genetic make up of the areas where your kin is concentrated. Nowadays DNA testing has become more precise, whereby it can be calculated which ethnic group you are genetically closest to. I’m sure men of Eastern England will on average be closest to Frisians and Saxons on the other side of the North Sea.

As for pride in one’s heritage… Pride is always a risky thing. I much prefer to think in terms of value. I much value my continental Saxon heritage and wish to preserve it in the face of modern silliness. I don’t need to look down on other ethnic groups for that.

 

[Aklis]

I'm Celtic.

I'm a mongrel. I have German blood from a 17th century relative on my father's side. More recently I have Italian blood from my paternal grandmother's grandfather, and my mother's grandfather stoutly claimed that we are direct descendants from none other than Harald Fairhair (which most likely is bull****, even though Norwegian blood would not be impossible given the relative proximity of my grandfather's birthplace, to Norway). Moreover, my father's side being from Skåne, the southernmost region of Sweden, and as such very close to Denmark, I would not be surprised if you found Danish heritage somewhere down the lines as well.

However, the past generations, I'm as Swedish as it gets and yet I am reluctant to identify myself as Swedish (preferring the less specific Scandinavian), and actively loathe my "motherland" with a burning passion.

 

[Éadric]

I don't think that makes you a mongrel. Norwegians and Germans aren't that distant from Swedes. And the odd Italian down the line would not be very signifcant.

Also, why do you hate Sweden with a burning passion?

 

[hrotha]

If we only go back a few generations, I'm a quarter Basque, a quarter Navarrese (so some would argue I'm half Basque), half Andalusian. I don't really identify myself as either. Contrary to some northern lands, Spain was always quite populated, so chances are the core population is still mostly of Iberian descent. On top of the Basque blood, which in all likelihood is just a minor part of the whole, I could have Celtiberian, Roman, Visigothic, Arab, Jewish or Berber blood. Who knows.

Eada, what I meant is that the concept of ethnicity varies from one culture to another. Yes, in most cultures some kind of blood ties are a requirement, but they're not the central aspect in my opinion, but more of the natural consequences of people living together with not a lot of mobility until recent historical times. Consider an American of nearly pure Irish descent whose full knowledge of Irish culture is exhausted after mentioning Guinness and the Dropkick Murphys on St Patrick's day and is otherwise undistinguishable from any of his mates from different backgrounds, and then a Highlander Scot of Anglo-Norman descent who speaks Gaelic as his native tongue and has lived somewhere in the Highlands all his life. Wouldn't you agree the latter is a Gael, while the former is not really an Irishman, but rather an American of Irish descent - which in my view is a quite different thing?

Well, the fact that my family is full of poets and scholars (as well as warriors, which are harder), finding links between names and distinguishing them as relatives is somewhat easier than the average person could find. And my great-uncle has been the "family historian" for sometime, and I managed to catch him on facebook last night, as he lives in Canada. And he told me that there have always been abnormalities in names, and that bastards and other children born into a non-marriage relationships used "mac <fathers name>" and such or simply used "Uí hUiginn".
But for the simplest use for a video game, using Uí hUiginn would be far easier, that and Mount & Blade doesn't allow for much space for names to have a large amount of detail, especially those of foreign basis (foreign to the bloody 'American English'). And to remove any confusion in names, as there has already been some with it already, which is somewhat infuriating that people can't seem to be able to read.

And the clan name Uí hUiginn, would be correct. But the thing is Ua hUiginn (or variants) can't be used, no one knows if the man ever existed, as there's no historical evidence. It could just be a family myth.

Well, it's hard to argue without seeing the data, but I'm skeptical. Linguistically, it should be Ua, that much I'm pretty sure of; check the entry in the dictionary, and the use with all the other names. Even if the man never existed, Uí hUiginn makes as much (or as little) sense as Ua hUiginn. There's also the possibility that the Uí hUiginn forms are more modern, just like the crest you found, and not suitable for the 10th and 11th centuries.

 

[Aklis]

I don't think that makes you a mongrel. Norwegians and Germans aren't that distant from Swedes. And the odd Italian down the line would not be very signifcant.

Also, why do you hate Sweden with a burning passion?

The "mongrel"-bit was not entirely serious, serving only to accentuate the fact that "purebred" people are, well, not exactly common and that Helwende's claims of being "Anglo-Saxon" are very unrealistic given that amount of peoples that have lived in Great Britain both before and after the Saxons arrived.

As for my hatred of Sweden, it is purely based on modern politics and the leftist anti-culture that seems to pervade every aspect of modern-day Sweden. I cannot in good faith stand behind a country that expects me to pay taxes to, for example, fund a project that work against democracy and free speech by making "anti-feministic" opinions illegal. I have no issue with people who want to consider themselves Swedish but to me it is simply a collection of letters in my passport because I was unfortunate enough to have been born here.

 

[Hugh Higgins]

Be skeptical, that's good, because it just means more research shall be done, and more shall be found out.
And Uí hUiginn is a new-ish version, but it did come around before 1066. We've been around since at least the 6th century, but the name we once used before at least the 10 century, like I said, has been lost to history. That, my friend cannot be helped.
And I didn't say I wanted to use the 12th century crest.

Though I somewhat agree with the argument, the name I'm using appeared during this time, so I feel more right about keeping it the way it is, for the sake of the clan (so people don't have to have different second names, and get confused, which trust me, they do easily), and for a small part, my own sanity.
I'll also see if I can get my hands on some photo-copied documents, perhaps a thread could be made for such things in future.


@ethnic/cultural topic
I'm Scottish, Gaelic, Breton and Norman, though I have Viking blood, like most of Scotland and Ireland. I am from the West coast of Scotland, after all. Also, I was born in Lower Saxony in a British Military area, am I a Saxon?

 

[hrotha]

Though I somewhat agree with the argument, the name I'm using appeared during this time, so I feel more right about keeping it the way it is, for the sake of the clan (so people don't have to have different second names, and get confused, which trust me, they do easily), and for a small part, my own sanity.
I'll also see if I can get my hands on some photo-copied documents, perhaps a thread could be made for such things in future.

This I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean by having different second names? You mean calling the clan Uí hUiginn and then using Ua hUiginn as the tag? If that's the case, it shouldn't be too confusing, certainly not for your mates. See the Fir Áraig ("men of the oath"), who use Fer Áraig ("man of the oath") as their tag, and I think the only people who have suggested there was a mistake were just trying to tease Celtic about it.

I'd be interested in seeing the documents!

 

[Hugh Higgins]

I'll see what I can do for both.
I'll be going to Canada sometime next year, so I'll get a physical photocopied copy. (I wouldn't trust TRM with my mail anymore)

Oh, and I almost forgot. Me and Shorty are working on a banner, it has a simple gryphon on it, and we'll probably make it more Gaelic.
Not entirely accurate, but should look legit.

 

[Éadric]

With you, Hróða, I’m pretty sure there’s also a bit of Martian in the mix.

As for your two examples: the Irish-American is much an instance of the Modern Age that I spoke of. To be sure, mixing is of all times, but only in the Modern Age is there so little consolidation. Though the Roman Empire was similar in many regards. The Gaelic speaking Anglo-Norman born and raised in the Scottish Highlands is a pretty extreme example in another sense. I would call someone like that a person between ethnicities. For as I stated: ethnicity does not necessarily have a genetic factor. Though it usually does.

Heregár, I think there is no problem whatsoever in an Englishman calling himself Anglo-Saxon, especially if he, like J.R.R. Tolkien for instance, deplores the Norman conquest, just as I see no problem in calling myself, a Saxon Dutchman, a Saxon full stop, whilst I deplore the Frankish hegemony of the last centuries in the Netherlands. Sure there are differences between the old nations on the one hand and their modern descendants on the other hand, but the line is there.

As for your reasons to hate your own country, I can relate. I do not care much for what the Netherlands have become.

 

[hrotha]

With you, Hróða, I’m pretty sure there’s also a bit of Martian in the mix.

I have the feeling that I'm holding minority views here, at least as far as this forum is concerned. I just wouldn't tell the Highlander to her face that she's not a Gael (yes, that example was based on a real person, a she rather than a he though).

 

[Harkon Haakonson]

I do not care much for what the Netherlands have become.

Interesting...

 

[Waidulf]

I would disagree that ethnicity is purely cultural. While ethnicity doesn’t necessarily have a genetic aspect, it usually does. Meaning that those with whom you share a culture are usually those closest to you in blood. Of course this might be less so in border areas, and it is certainly less so in the Modern Age, with its unparallelled migrations and drastic melting pot (which I for one hate), but in general it holds.

Interesting discussion. I heavily agree with Éadríc on this topic.

From a sarcastic point of view it's a classic discrepancy in our so called modern society to blame those (native Europeans/Germanic people) who consider themselves as "Germanic" (from an ethnic/genetic point of view) as "racists", or less worse - as far right. Racism is allways bound to a kind of rating, what's often forgotten by mass media propaganda, Gender Mainstreaming Idiologists (hardcore feminism - anti male politics), Cultural Marxism, International Socialism and leftists. Human races exist, it's a scientific fact and it's not connected to any rating who's better or worse. And yes, there are people who are "more pure blooded" than others from a ethno-genetic point of view. Even in Europe of today. I don't say this is good or bad, but negiotiating the facts is a clear proof of mass media brainwash.
A nice (political) example for mass media brainwashing would be a Breton from the Bretagne singing Folk Songs about the freedom of the Bretagne. This song would only be considered as entertainment and Folklore, and NOT as a carrier of a specific political message: Bretagne for the Bretons. We want to be independent. (It's just an example, you could also speak about Tibetians or Basques.) If instead a German would sing German Folksongs from the 19th century he would considered to be right wing, and in the worst case - as racist. That's how are things going.

However, I also can understand Hrotha, who is part of a nation which has many roots.
I consider myself to be Germanic, and know beside family history even something about personal genetic markers and similar things. But that's nothing for the forums. I'm not "proud" of it in a political way, but I personally have a deep connection to my ethnicity. And yes, in some parts of my contry I'm part of a ethnic minority today. And I don't like it, which is my right as a free man.