The many issues i see with cavalry in MP

Gold316

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I don't think cav is as bad as people are stating in this thread, but there are definitely some issues with heavy cav.

For one, I think Cav is much too maneuverable, especially in more enclosed maps. If a Cav runs full speed into a wall and stops, no problem W+W and they're on their merry way in a second or two. This makes it very difficult to punish Cav who make mistakes or poor decisions when riding their horse. Yes, Cav should have a mobility advantage, they're on a horse. However, if they make a mistake it should leave them open to be punished for that mistake. If a Cav is stopped by a spear and rears or makes a mistake when charging at enemies, those are punishable just fine. But from what I see in Skirmish, Cav are riding in to situations that would be ridiculous to ride into without expecting to sacrifice themselves or at least losing their horse for the effort.

Second is that knockdowns are a little too long, I don't see a difference if a horse knocks you to the ground or a Cav rider being thrown from their horse full gallop, their horse dies and they take a tumble. Yet a player knocked down by the horse is down for quite a few seconds longer and is unable to defend themselves. While the Cav rider takes a tumble, is able to throw up his shield while on the ground allowing him the chance to get up, and is up considerably faster than the player knocked down by the horse. It needs to be tweaked so players knocked over by Cav have the same chances Cav players have when losing their horse I think.

Third, I think either there needs to be some gold adjustments to the class itself as there really isn't any option to choose lighter cav unless you really want to save the gold. They are in every way inferior to Heavy Cav, their horses are brought down faster, the rider has less armor and on a few factions lacks a shield to defend against ranged attacks, has less armor for the rider, and their less armored horse does not bump enemies as easily as an armored horse does.

Also, fall damage to horses needs to be increased on Cav, for the Desert Market map, I've seen horses choose to leap from the roof where A point is to get away as they know the horse will survive the fall rather than try to get themselves out of a bad situation in a more reasonable fashion. Likely could make it so the rider also receives a portion of fall damage rather than just the horse, but I think it should be increased a bit further regardless.

I think making some changes in those areas and opinions on Cav being op might change quite a bit.
I agree the knockdown for infantry is too long i had cases where cav charged me and enemy infantry was able to get 2 hits in on me. i think cav horses hp should be reduced for example the camel on aserai has 280hp yet it has no armor. the purpose of spears should be to prevent cav charges by killing the cav instantly yet they are ineffective due to large hp pool cavs have.
 

Zoonanay

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I have never once seen a cav player do this and perfectly dodge projectiles and attacks. If you have please take video and sent it to me (also i'd want to recruit that player whoever can do that lol). Dodging every projectile just isn't possible. Also a similar thing can be said for infantry as you can crouch to avoid getting shot.
Crouching does not seem viable, halving your movement speed, unable to attack back only block, your shield has not gotten wider and thus you are still exposed to the flanks for a even longer period of time.

Perfection is not needed, a pila can do anything from 10-100 on a low velocity heavy horse (Health = 210+). The rider is protected by a small hitbox, elevation and a shield.

If half of projectiles miss, this gives a half dozen opportunities minimum for your team's projectiles to land, doing player damage, not entity damage.

Experienced or not if a cavalryman is charging from behind, and an archer is in front of you, what decision do you make? How would you as an experienced player counter this?

If you chase the archer, the cav runs you down.

If you turn to the cav, the archer gets a chance to shoot you and the cav can choose to charge through or full-stop.

What other alternative strategy would you propose, in which you are not exposed? Even with another team mate.

I suppose the real problem is infantry's redundancy if skill is equalized, I struggle to see their advantage.
 

PeasantSprig

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Get a big two handed swinging weapon and jump swing them off their horse. You can change direction faster than cav so go to the side he isn't aiming for before you jump. I get above 200 damage regularly when I do this. Kuzait vs Sturgia deathmatch is full of people getting an axe to the chest while on horseback.
 

Gold316

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Get a big two handed swinging weapon and jump swing them off their horse. You can change direction faster than cav so go to the side he isn't aiming for before you jump. I get above 200 damage regularly when I do this. Kuzait vs Sturgia deathmatch is full of people getting an axe to the chest while on horseback.
I do that from time to time,But Thats when im facing cav without shield or ones not couch lancing as when they are couch lancing it magically tracks my movement and hits me. Its not a bad strategy but it will only work on Cav without shields Mostly.
 

Mabons

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Get a big two handed swinging weapon and jump swing them off their horse. You can change direction faster than cav so go to the side he isn't aiming for before you jump. I get above 200 damage regularly when I do this. Kuzait vs Sturgia deathmatch is full of people getting an axe to the chest while on horseback.
That sort of thing only works on an absolutely ****e player in general. Anyone with half a brain will just stab you out of the air first.
 
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Crouching does not seem viable, halving your movement speed, unable to attack back only block, your shield has not gotten wider and thus you are still exposed to the flanks for a even longer period of time.

Perfection is not needed, a pila can do anything from 10-100 on a low velocity heavy horse (Health = 210+). The rider is protected by a small hitbox, elevation and a shield.

If half of projectiles miss, this gives a half dozen opportunities minimum for your team's projectiles to land, doing player damage, not entity damage.

Experienced or not if a cavalryman is charging from behind, and an archer is in front of you, what decision do you make? How would you as an experienced player counter this?

If you chase the archer, the cav runs you down.

If you turn to the cav, the archer gets a chance to shoot you and the cav can choose to charge through or full-stop.

What other alternative strategy would you propose, in which you are not exposed? Even with another team mate.

I suppose the real problem is infantry's redundancy if skill is equalized, I struggle to see their advantage.
Well this IS a 2v1 situation so the infantry shouldn’t be winning

honestly, with strong stacks I meet my cav just gets destroyed by their infantry + archers. We all just need to learn how to deal with cav better rather than making them have a subpar ceiling
 

Gold316

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Well this IS a 2v1 situation so the infantry shouldn’t be winning

honestly, with strong stacks I meet my cav just gets destroyed by their infantry + archers. We all just need to learn how to deal with cav better rather than making them have a subpar ceiling
I can deal with cav. its just the amount of spam that comes with fighting cav. going up against a whole team of cav is boring and that should be limited.
 

Zoonanay

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Well this IS a 2v1 situation so the infantry shouldn’t be winning

honestly, with strong stacks I meet my cav just gets destroyed by their infantry + archers. We all just need to learn how to deal with cav better rather than making them have a subpar ceiling
Okay, let's add another infantry. Now, one must stop the cavalry charging from behind, whilst the other must pressure the archer. They will begin to split as the cavalry is behind, the archer in front. The archer will be able to shoot past their opponent, into the back of the spearman stopping the cavalry. Once he is hit and flinches, this gives the cavalry an opportunity to not only strike in combination with the arrow but move past that infantry to then harass the infantryman pushing the archer.

Even if we assume, 2 Legionaries with 4 Pila, only one can look at the cavalry at a time or risk giving the archer an unpressured easy shot. As previously discussed, with throwing delay, new movment mechanics and armour it is likely a good cavalry can avoid critical damage from just 2 Pila's.

Or worse yet, if the infantry misses even a single Pila throw, the cavalry can now comfortably sit on his face, trusting at low velocity with heavy armour the infantry's sword is unlikely to do anything to the horse, and with a little blocking no danger to the rider.

What strategy do you find employed by these "infantry + archers" specifically, that ends in your cavalries destruction?
 
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Okay, let's add another infantry. Now, one must stop the cavalry charging from behind, whilst the other must pressure the archer. They will begin to split as the cavalry is behind, the archer in front. The archer will be able to shoot past their opponent, into the back of the spearman stopping the cavalry. Once he is hit and flinches, this gives the cavalry an opportunity to not only strike in combination with the arrow but move past that infantry to then harass the infantryman pushing the archer.

Even if we assume, 2 Legionaries with 4 Pila, only one can look at the cavalry at a time or risk giving the archer an unpressured easy shot. As previously discussed, with throwing delay, new movment mechanics and armour it is likely a good cavalry can avoid critical damage from just 2 Pila's.

Or worse yet, if the infantry misses even a single Pila throw, the cavalry can now comfortably sit on his face, trusting at low velocity with heavy armour the infantry's sword is unlikely to do anything to the horse, and with a little blocking no danger to the rider.

What strategy do you find employed by these "infantry + archers" specifically, that ends in your cavalries destruction?
Sword infantry were never meant to defend against cav properly. Change sword to spear and cav will be dead.


I can deal with cav. its just the amount of spam that comes with fighting cav. going up against a whole team of cav is boring and that should be limited.
I think players should have the freedom to play wtv they want. Pure cav is rarely the optimal composition and will result in losing if the enemy team cooperated properly
 

Zoonanay

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Sword infantry were never meant to defend against cav properly. Change sword to spear and cav will be dead.
I fear you've misunderstood the post. Regardless of if the infantry has a spear or sword, he has to turn around to use whatever weapon he has, this gives an opportunity to get shot by the archer.

Unfortunatley I struggle to see how the simple use of a spear in this situation both stops the cavalry and avoids an arrow in the back, could you please expand upon your use of the spear? In this specific scenario?
 
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I fear you've misunderstood the post. Regardless of if the infantry has a spear or sword, he has to turn around to use whatever weapon he has, this gives an opportunity to get shot by the archer.

Unfortunatley I struggle to see how the simple use of a spear in this situation both stops the cavalry and avoids an arrow in the back, could you please expand upon your use of the spear? In this specific scenario?
If it was 2v2, one player will approach the archer and engage in melee while the spear user will keep the cav at a distance and support the sword inf
If it was 2v1, you are getting flanked one way or the other
 

Zoonanay

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If it was 2v2, one player will approach the archer and engage in melee while the spear user will keep the cav at a distance and support the sword inf
If it was 2v1, you are getting flanked one way or the other
So, two guys pushing an archer. Archer runs back, hasn't got a shield so is faster than the infantry. You hear a cavalry from behind, one of you "keeps the cav at a distance", the archer turns and puts an arrow in his back. Your pushing infantryman is still 12 metres from the archer. What do you do now?

A: Sword Infantry keeps pushing archer, spearman can't keep up whilst facing backwards, the two seperate, cavalry passes the spearman and we're back to that 2v1 scenario from earlier, aren't we?

B: Both turn to the archer and rush, archer runs away whilst cavalry pursues feint charging until finally commiting to one and killing the injured spearman.

C: Both go for the cavalry, cavalry disengages and the archer shoots them more in the back.

What I am asking is what is your option D here? I know you'd equip the spear, you've made this thoroughly clear. Now how would you use said spear in conjunction with the sword infantry in this specific scenario which can occur all too often?

For instance, how would you keep the cavalry at a distance, with a 2 metre long spear when your team mate may be beyond 2 metres reach? Do you make sure he is within 2 metres? How much slower will this make your movement speed? Could you still catch that archer whilst ensuring adequate cavalry protection? Would your odds improve if both infantry has spears? If so by what strategy?
 

chen12011

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If it was 2v2, one player will approach the archer and engage in melee while the spear user will keep the cav at a distance and support the sword inf
If it was 2v1, you are getting flanked one way or the other
It doesnt matter, because the spear will not stop the horse. it will probably go something like this in a 2v2

1 infantry breaks off to engage archer, archer fires a couple of arrows hitting infantry 1 and maybe hitting infantry 2 who will deal with the cav.
But the cav, who is supposed to be dealt with by infantry 2 because he has a spear, will more than likely charge the spear player because everyone knows spears suck as anti-cav in Bannerlord.

Even if the spearman can stop the horse, the horse will double tap boost away with almost no damage taken because horses in bannerlord are stupid strong.

I really hate how the double tap boost makes it so easy to get away from your mistakes in bannerlord. In Warband if your horse got reared, the horse would take a couple of seconds to accelerate back to full speed allowing the spearman to switch to a real weapon and deal damage. Now the horse gets reared and turns on the speed boost and disappears before the spearman can even get a second hit in. Add in heavy armor and the horse becomes an unkillable tank.
 

CarefulDeath

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These hypothetical situations are at best theory crafting, and detracting from the main point of the thread I think. If you are in a 2v1 with an archer some distance ahead of you and a Cav speeding in from behind, rightfully, you should be screwed from breaking away from your team or getting lured away into the trap. In a 2v2, the situation still isn't ideal and option D would be for the Infantry to close ranks to cover themselves from the archer as well as keep Cav from crashing into them and move to a more advantageous position where there is some cover or limited routes to enter and leave from and force the Cav and Archer to separate in order to defeat them or make them come into less advantageous positions for them. Or retreat back to their team for more backup.
 

Zoonanay

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These hypothetical situations are at best theory crafting, and detracting from the main point of the thread I think. If you are in a 2v1 with an archer some distance ahead of you and a Cav speeding in from behind, rightfully, you should be screwed from breaking away from your team or getting lured away into the trap. In a 2v2, the situation still isn't ideal and option D would be for the Infantry to close ranks to cover themselves from the archer as well as keep Cav from crashing into them and move to a more advantageous position where there is some cover or limited routes to enter and leave from and force the Cav and Archer to separate in order to defeat them or make them come into less advantageous positions for them. Or retreat back to their team for more backup.
You're right, it is theory crafting. In a game with so much nuance in the use of its weapons and tools, I feel a quantative analysis of stats wouldn't give a balanced picture, since there are many qualitative features of use.

The morale mechanic in its current form, might leave you in a situation where you're surrounded by cav and archers on final flag, or getting harassed and split apart en-route to it. If you retreat from 2v2s against archer/cav combos, a heavy deficit will emerge over the 2 minutes until last flag.

This might be an issue with morale tick-speed, or even map-design, which is then compounded by cav/archer control mechanics, it is hard to say which is the more determinant factor but cavalry stats/mechanics are undoubtedly a factor to be discussed.

My insider at Taleworlds HQ just leaked me some of the patch notes for 1.5 that are aimed towards making cavalry more balanced in multiplayer.

- Reduced cavalry rotation speed at low movement speeds and while stationary.
- Reduced the armor values of cavalry classes accross the board.
- The Cataphract and the Mamluke have had their shortbow perk changed to longbows, which can only be used on foot. We felt that mounted archery was a bit too powerful, so we decided to give a little more depth to the use of bows as cavalry classes.
- The Druzhinik's shortbow perk has been changed to throwing knives.
- Added further delay on jumping for horses.
- The Vanguard no longer has a horse by default.
- The Vanguard has had its perks changed entirely: Better sword / War horse / Courser --- Better armor / Lance / Shield
- Reduced the size of shield force-fields for cavalry.
- There is now a longer windup phase for attacking from horseback once an attack is released.

As always, we've been listening to the community for this patch, and we're responding to the complaint we've been seeing in the community that our balance changes have not been bold enough. With this patch, we've been taking a new, more head-on approach to these balance issues.


That's the patch notes.
If this is the upcoming patch, this looks amazing. Thankyou whoever at Talesworlds leaked and/or worked on this and Noudelle for sharing it. Vanguard having their horse as a perk sounds like a very interesting idea, excited to see how it all works in-game.