The Man that Must Change China (recent Economist essay)

[Mage246]

Ah, so that's why China wants war with the Phillipines - to steal their wimmenz.

 

[Anthropoid]

Ah, so that's why China wants war with the Phillipines - to steal their wimmenz.

In truth, isn't that what most wars are about?

 

[FrisianDude]

Not since the Sabines.

 

[Ludial]

Besides, Japan is a major US ally. Big spanner in the works.

And as far as I'm aware, 'alliance' for the Chinese means exploiting their 'allies' and trying to end up on top. Same for the Yanks. Correct me if you think I'm wrong, but an empire is an empire. Especially when it's dominated by a nation 5000 years old

 

[Jhessail]

At least the Chinese are polite about. They improve the infrastructure of their "colonies" and pay for resources and services, instead of taking them by force. Naturally, the infrastructure improvements help themselves out and the going rates are probably very low but there you go.

 

[Anthropoid]

At least the Chinese are polite about. They improve the infrastructure of their "colonies" and pay for resources and services, instead of taking them by force. Naturally, the infrastructure improvements help themselves out and the going rates are probably very low but there you go.

It was my understanding that the Chinese 'rape' the natural resources in the areas where they gain a sphere of influence so I'm a bit puzzled to hear you say that they are "polite" about it. Perhaps they do provide infrastructure, but my guess is they provide what is useful to their purposes, not what would be most useful for the long-term benefit of the client society.

 

[Jhessail]

Well, define "rape". They are nowhere near as bad as the 19th century European imperialists but their projects aren't benevolent charities either.

 

[Anthropoid]

Well, define "rape". They are nowhere near as bad as the 19th century European imperialists but their projects aren't benevolent charities either.

Clear cutting rainforests in Borneo is the main one that comes to mind. I don't recall the specific environmental disasters in Central/Western Africa, but 'raping' of the natural resources again comes to mind.

Also I don't see the relevance of the comparison to 19th century European Empires? Is that to suggest that, because the European Empires got 'their turn' at abusing the underdeveloped countries, that the Chinese rightfully get their turn too?

Does that mean that, since the West intervened and prevented Japan from culminating its Imperial aspirations that Japan would be justified to go on an unethical, unjust and inhumane "Empire spree?"

What about Sweden, Italy, Greece, societies with time-honored cultures stretching back nearly as far as that of China? Do they get their shot at raping the planet too?

 

[Mage246]

From what I've heard, half of the promised development aid is never sent, or the infrastructure is shoddy or unsuitable. It's not like they send their best to work on these projects, or care about using quality materias.

 

[Jhessail]

Also I don't see the relevance of the comparison to 19th century European Empires?

That they aren't enslaving, raping and killing the natives left and right.

Is that to suggest that, because the European Empires got 'their turn' at abusing the underdeveloped countries, that the Chinese rightfully get their turn too?

Nope.

Does that mean that, since the West intervened and prevented Japan from culminating its Imperial aspirations that Japan would be justified to go on an unethical, unjust and inhumane "Empire spree?"

Nope.

What about Sweden, Italy, Greece, societies with time-honored cultures stretching back nearly as far as that of China? Do they get their shot at raping the planet too?

Nope.

Of course, any "empire" is free to do what they can get away with, if we only consider Realpolitik. Doesn't mean that I, or anyone else for that matter, condone such actions, ethically or morally.

From what I've heard, half of the promised development aid is never sent, or the infrastructure is shoddy or unsuitable. It's not like they send their best to work on these projects, or care about using quality materias.

That's not what I've heard. Point me towards your sources, please, I need to keep up with this stuff, thanks.

 

[Mage246]

Will do, once I have access to a computer again. Would have to be Economist, Foreign Affairs, or NYT.

 

[Almalexia]

What about Sweden, Italy, Greece, societies with time-honored cultures stretching back nearly as far as that of China? Do they get their shot at raping the planet too?

Umm, they all already had empires. 

 

[Anthropoid]

What about Sweden, Italy, Greece, societies with time-honored cultures stretching back nearly as far as that of China? Do they get their shot at raping the planet too?

Umm, they all already had empires. 

True. Though not 'colonial' empires in the Age of Discovery through 19th Century sense; that is splitting hairs though isn't it?

ADDIT: got me reviewing the definition of Empire via wiki, and I'm reaching the conclusion that, while it is a useful term, defining what is and is not an "Empire" is generally going to be quite problematic.

For example, the United States (excluding its territories and more ambiguous sphere's of influence, such as Germany or Japan where military bases are still held) is generally considered to be a Federal republic.

http://An empire is a state with politico-military dominion of populations who are culturally and ethnically distinct from the imperial (ruling) ethnic group and its culture[3] — unlike a federation, an extensive state voluntarily composed of autonomous states and peoples.

Bet more than a few Confederates in the late 19th and early 20th centuries would dispute the idea that the southern states were 'voluntarily' members of the U.S.

Not to mention Hawaii, largely conquered if memory serves. Alaska = bought with virtually zero consent of the local people.

So in effect, what is thought of as a Federation may well be argued to be an Empire.

No question that the Roman Empire and the British Empired, etc., are quintessential and I doubt few would dispute that they WERE Empires and not something else.

But then you get things like "The Athenian Empire" being referenced by the same term?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire

So a 'confederation' of a dozen or less city-states (all of whom spoke the same language and were part of a common culture group) which lasted for a mere 23 years and spanned a few hundred miles in width and breadth is referred to by the same term as the Roman Empire and the British?? 

Well if that is a valid application of the term, then why not call each city-state an "Empire" too?

 

[Mage246]

Empires aren't eternal classifications. We'd have to reconquer Hawaii with each new generation for that to still be a valid criticism. Our current President was born in Hawaii after all (not Kenya...).

 

[Mad Vader]

So, yeah, the rise of China.
While running around in panic and asking people "omg, what are we gonna do??", is certainly human (or at least anthropoid ) response, do you see opportunities and not only challenges?

 

[FrisianDude]

What about Sweden, Italy, Greece, societies with time-honored cultures stretching back nearly as far as that of China? Do they get their shot at raping the planet too?

Umm, they all already had empires. 

What Greek empire is this?

 

[Austupaio]

Delian League, Macedonia, take your pick. It's all subjective.

 

[FrisianDude]

Bosh, one is an Athenian (miniature) empire (if even an empire, more like forced confederacy), the other is Hellenized Macedones.

 

[Austupaio]

The Japanese Empire is easily called a forced confederacy, the Byzantine Empire was just Romanized Turks, the Holy Roman Empire was just a bunch of tiny germans trying to band together so they wouldn't get ****ed by the French, the British Empire was just a franchise etc.

 

[FrisianDude]

Good point (if not entirely accurate), I was being a bit of a pedant. But I did partially think that maybe there had been a "Greek empire" in more modern times which I simply didn't know of, perhaps he was referring to that, I thought.