The M&B Fencing System

[TerrigenusTriste]

Well... I've been playing this wonderful game for quite some time now, and I feel this irresistable urge to talk about fencing
I'm a longsword fencer irl. That being said I know a lot about techniques for longswords, but very little except logical assumptions about other weapons based on my knowledge of my weapon of choice. Therefore I will stick mainly to the things I know, and talk mostly about the twohanded sword in M&B

So... the twohanded sword:
This weapon is absolutely wonderful And funny I find it very amusing that the style resembles the german fencing style so much
Compared to real fencing, the M&B style is the most realistic I've seen so far, when taking into account that this is a computer game and the player is limited in his options due to the programming and inputs available. There is only so much you can do with a keyboard and a mouse
Now there are a few things I have to complain about though... First of all, as many of you probably already know, real twohanded swords were used to cut up pike formations, rarely to fence with. I've tried a real Zweihander, and it's way to big to fence with. The techniques involved are mainly thrusting with the tip, and not swinging it about as many are lead to believe. The twohanded weapons in M&B are rather like the longsword I use (Longsword, bastard sword.. same name, same sword). I really don't understand this obsession with large swords, almost every medieval/fantasy game seems to have them, despite the fact that they were never really used to fence with The largest sword that is "fencable", for a normal person, would be the longsword/bastard sword. Sure, you can swing the Zweihander around like crazy, and in a confusing meleé this is very effective, but when you are facing an opponent that is actually aware of you and ready for you, a twohanded sword (Zweihander) would be the last of my weapon choices
Now I know that a lot of people have been complaining about wielding a twohanded sword on horseback, but if you agree with me and consider the twohanded swords in M&B to actually be longswords/bastard swords, you should see that this should be perfectly possible Longswords were great for fighting on horseback, since their length was long enough to reach footmen and rival knights on horseback alike, and the swords were balanced and light enough to be used effectively. Now it is actually possible to wield a true twohanded sword on horseback as well, but not without using both your hands. This is one of the few things that I really could complain about in M&B; You can swing mauls and twohanded swords with one hand as if they were sticks With enough speed, it is simply enough to just hold the weapon still, and stretch it out to either side. The impact is still enough to shatter a skull I've been in several medieval tournaments, acting as a helper for the knights, and I've noticed some of their cheaper tricks to winning; The audiance loves it when a knight swings his morningstar around like crazy, but the ones that care more for the prize than the love of the audiance does what I pointed out before: They just hold out their weapon and let the speed from the horse and the mass of the weapon deal the damage. The precision gained is amazing compared to swinging it, since they can hold their weapons still and aim carefully. Now my point to this is that since the maul and twohanded swords (Zweihanders, not longswords) are so heavy that the rider just have to make a slow and short motion with the weapon, not swing it in full force (Which would counter the natural slowness of a large weapon). Say for example that you swing a normal onehanded sword in a 180 degree half circle in M&B, then the swing required to use a maul or twohanded sword would be like 35-45 degrees, with a much more "thrusting" motion downwards to use the reach effectively. That would be the only real way of using them, as far as I see it. Now this means of course that those weapons would be more used in the way that the lance is used, but more to the side of the horse rather than in front of it

Now to some suggestions:
1) Don't use the the term "twohanded sword", please! Zweihanders and their gargauntian cousins were only really used against pikes. (Some crazy german "Landknechts" used them, but they were... german )
The swords in M&B that uses two hands should really be named longswords, bastard swords or broadswords, because that's what they function like. And -all- of them can be used with a shield onehanded.
2) (Actually continuing on 1 ) -If- real twohanders will be used in the game, make them look like real twohanders, and the right length (which should immediately reveal the awkwardness in fighting with them). And when swinging with them, give them a suitable recovering time from each swing, as they are heavy and cumbersome weapons (but of course, make the damage apropriate too).
If used on horseback, a twohander should only be able to be used with two hands (doh), and the attack animation should be showing this better (refering to the long text about this before).
3) Give twohanded swords (and longswords) the ability to inflict a very small amount of damage (like 1-4 points, or something similar) when hitting a shield that successfully blocks the blow, because a very common technique to counter shields with a longsword is to use the long reach of the weapon to get behind the shield, if only to make a tiny little cut. Shields were good against onehanded swords and missile weapons, ok against axes and longswords, and horrible against flails
4) Include flails They should be able to damage to an opponent with a shield even if he blocks the attack. Game balance probably demands something like this:
Flail against blocking shield: Half or 1/3 of normal damage.
Non-flail against blocking flail (without shield, just the flail): Half or 1/3 of normal damage.

Well... I think that's it I really want a discussion around this, so feel free to argue with me all that you like

 

[Ganelon]

Good points! I agree those things you've mentioned. I thaught Im the only one here who fences in real life. I've specialised in viking-age combat with various weapons and a little bit german longsword technigues. Sorry my off-topic but I know that urge.

 

[robertthered]

Feel free to argue, eh? Hehe. Alrighty.

The techniques involved are mainly thrusting with the tip, and not swinging it about as many are lead to believe.

I'm really not so sure about that. There were more thrusts used than people tend to think, but I wouldn't say the thrusting techniques were the most used. The longsword section in Talhoffer's Fechtbuch (a 15th century fighting manual) mostly illustrates cuts, counter-cuts and half-sword techniques.

Now there are a few things I have to complain about though... First of all, as many of you probably already know, real twohanded swords were used to cut up pike formations, rarely to fence with. I've tried a real Zweihander, and it's way to big to fence with.

1) Don't use the the term "twohanded sword", please! Zweihanders and their gargauntian cousins were only really used against pikes. (Some crazy german "Landknechts" used them, but they were... german )

But two-handed sword is technically correct, is it not? Two-handed swords are those which require the use of two hands for the most effective use, because of the length and weight of the sword. Aren't two-handed swords, slaughterswords, great swords and zweihanders fairly synonymous, usually referring to one category of blade?

As I understand it they were used very effectively in swordplay, especially against lightly armoured opponents. And yes, the large zweihanders (often pictured with a wave blade and called flamberges by collectors) were used by the landsknechts to break up pike walls ahead of the cavalry. But still, I imagine they (the particular type of zweihander you were referring to) would have been used in relatively close combat.

I say this because in a lot of old illustrations of landsknechts I've seen, the only secondary weapon shown is a dagger or short sword. Also, the common design of the zweihander seems to suggest as much. The wave blade for example served to send disconcerting vibrations along the weapon of the opponent which, in most cases, would have been a sword. And frequently the grip of the sword extended well beyond the cross-hilt and ended before a pair of pointed lugs protruding from the blade. To me that would suggest that half-sword techniques were frequently used with this weapon, implying that it wasn't necessarily all that cumbersome and fencing was not only quite possible but reasonably common.

A quick google search brings up some useful information, which seems to confirm this: http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

And yeah, I have held a zweihander like the one you appeared to be referring to. And it was heavy and cumbersome. But it was a ridiculous length of over two metres long--a poorly weighted lump of metal. Not, I imagine, anything like the well-balanced two-handed blades used in battles of old.

The swords in M&B that uses two hands should really be named longswords, bastard swords or broadswords, because that's what they function like. And -all- of them can be used with a shield onehanded.

The next type of sword down the line in terms of weight and length were the longswords, bastard swords or hand-and-a-half swords. But... broadswords? I've only ever seen the term broadsword applied to one-handed blades, like the arming sword.

But you're dead right about the three larger swords in Mount & Blade functioning more like this class of sword, particularly on horseback.

 

[Damien]

Hey.. good to see a fellow fencer.

First of all, as many of you probably already know, real twohanded swords were used to cut up pike formations, rarely to fence with.

That's actually a misconception. The larger-end two-handers were used to -knock aside- pikes to get the soldiers inside the formation to do more damage, or to break up the formation for a charge from the cavalry.

But both these swords and the smaller-end two-hand swords were, indeed, used to fence with.

I've tried a real Zweihander, and it's way to big to fence with.

For me too. But I've seen plenty of guys do it. It just requires some seriously powerful limbs and a height of 6 feet or more.

The techniques involved are mainly thrusting with the tip, and not swinging it about as many are lead to believe.

That's true.

The largest sword that is "fencable", for a normal person, would be the longsword/bastard sword.

Two-hand swords most certainly are 'fencable' as well. I use one regularly (although it's certainly not a 'pikekiller' - as such swords are too big for someone of my size [5'10, slim]).


With large swords half-swording is very popular. That's actually -why- half-swording was invented, presumably.




Also, I would agree that some weapons should just not be usable from horseback. I also think HUGE two-hand hammers that look like poles with concrete slabs tied to their ends shouldn't exist at all.. but that's just me.



Here are some period fighting manuals, many of which show the use of the true two-hand sword in personal combat:


http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/Goliath.htm This one especially.

 

[James Sterrett]

Just piping up as another longsword fencer (and ARMA member, at that), though still fairly new.

 

[Eternal Champion]

Oh, I thought from the topic you meant "selling stolen goods"...

 

[TerrigenusTriste]

Damien:
Thanks for those links! All of a sudden, fencing with twohanded swords suddenly seems possible Haha, I've tried to apply italian hand-and-a-half-sword techniques to Zweihanders, and I never really could understand how anyone could fence with them Now it makes sense ^^
Actually, the italian style that I fence with doesn't have those high guards, I believe that was something the germans invented much later, among their "master cuts", which would explain why I could'nt imagine something like that *smiles*

Also, I would agree that some weapons should just not be usable from horseback. I also think HUGE two-hand hammers that look like poles with concrete slabs tied to their ends shouldn't exist at all.. but that's just me.

I agree

robertthered:

But two-handed sword is technically correct, is it not? Two-handed swords are those which require the use of two hands for the most effective use, because of the length and weight of the sword. Aren't two-handed swords, slaughterswords, great swords and zweihanders fairly synonymous, usually referring to one category of blade?

Well... hand-and-a-half-swords, ie longswords and bastard swords, -can- be used with one hand although two hands are prefered. The Zweihanders and swords like them -cannot- be used with one hand (for a normal human ).
Perhaps I've made some confusing naming mistakes, but from now on I will refer to Zweihanders and the like as "twohanded swords", and longswords, bastard swords and such as "longswords" or "hand-and-a-half-swords"
Btw.. Here is a picture of a friend of mine with a twohanded sword:
http://photobucket.com/albums/c312/TerrigenusTriste/?action=view&current=Knekt.jpg
It's -big- And obviously cannot be used with one hand

But it was a ridiculous length of over two metres long--a poorly weighted lump of metal. Not, I imagine, anything like the well-balanced two-handed blades used in battles of old.

If you refer to twohanded swords here, I believe you are wrong. Yes, the swords of old were probably better balanced than the massproduced swords you can order today, but the problem with a twohanded sword is the -length-. You cannot balance it enough to be able to use it with one hand, the momentum (and the weight, unless you're Arnold ) is simply too much.

But you're dead right about the three larger swords in Mount & Blade functioning more like this class of sword, particularly on horseback.

Damn right Now the twohanded swords in M&B are actually hand-and-a-half-swords, both in appearance and function. Sadly, only the bastard sword can be used onehanded/twohanded, not all of them.
But wouldn't it be great to actually have swords like the one in the picture? *smiles*

Well... now a general question, mostly to the fencers around here:
Do you think that the M&B system with blocking in four directions works well? Is there anything that's missing or should be added?

Personally, I would like to have a half-sword-technique with the twohanded sword, for close-quarters. Say for example that you hold the left mouse button, and while doing so click the right button, the character would grab the blade of the weapon with his left hand and make fast slash or thrust, but with a very short reach. Half-sword techniques are excellent for close combat, something that the M&B twohanders really suck at since they are so slow. Being gangraped by 10 peasants with knives, whilst carrying a twohander, is something way too common

 

[Vachir]

I'd love to see half-swording implemented in M&B. With all the games that have huge two handed swords, I've never seen one actually allow for the correct historical fighting style to apply them properly.

As far as actual usage of 'really big swords', there are other examples of the great sword or claymore before the rise of the pike phalanx in the late period, and even more if you get into asia. Very long swords are effective weapons in a variety of situations, though I would definitely agree that 'swinging' use on horseback is not one of them.

 

[Cale]

Err just a general point but when you say we should call them Zweihanders instead of two handers...isn't Zwei hander just two hander in german?

 

[robertthered]

If you refer to twohanded swords here, I believe you are wrong. Yes, the swords of old were probably better balanced than the massproduced swords you can order today, but the problem with a twohanded sword is the -length-. You cannot balance it enough to be able to use it with one hand, the momentum (and the weight, unless you're Arnold ) is simply too much.

Um... I can't seem to find where I suggested that two-handed swords could be wielded one-handed. I said the very opposite in the bit you quoted me on.

 

[TerrigenusTriste]

robertthered:

Um... I can't seem to find where I suggested that two-handed swords could be wielded one-handed. I said the very opposite in the bit you quoted me on.

Oh, I must have misunderstood you then, sorry

Cale:

Err just a general point but when you say we should call them Zweihanders instead of two handers...isn't Zwei hander just two hander in german?

Yes, it is Where did I say "Zweihander instead of twohander"?

 

[Kissaki]

Now to some suggestions:
1) Don't use the the term "twohanded sword", please! Zweihanders and their gargauntian cousins were only really used against pikes. (Some crazy german "Landknechts" used them, but they were... german )
The swords in M&B that uses two hands should really be named longswords, bastard swords or broadswords, because that's what they function like. And -all- of them can be used with a shield onehanded.

I don't recall seeing a single sword named "two handed sword". Sure, lots of swords have the sub-text "two-handed" below the name, but so do many axes. It's not a referance to the name at all, but to the skill used in the game. If a weapon is used with both hands, it is perfectly reasonable to refer to the two-handed weapon skill with the text, "two handed". Just like the staff is a "polearm". Not bexause it's actually a polearm, but because in the game it uses polearm skill. Though I agree, you should be able to wield many of those swords one-handed as well, but it would require much more practice to do so comfortably. And being a two-handed sort of fellow myself, my right hand tends to get a bit spoiled, and my single-hand technique suffers consequently.

2) (Actually continuing on 1 ) -If- real twohanders will be used in the game, make them look like real twohanders, and the right length (which should immediately reveal the awkwardness in fighting with them). And when swinging with them, give them a suitable recovering time from each swing, as they are heavy and cumbersome weapons (but of course, make the damage apropriate too).
If used on horseback, a twohander should only be able to be used with two hands (doh), and the attack animation should be showing this better (refering to the long text about this before).

Zweihänders from horseback?

3) Give twohanded swords (and longswords) the ability to inflict a very small amount of damage (like 1-4 points, or something similar) when hitting a shield that successfully blocks the blow, because a very common technique to counter shields with a longsword is to use the long reach of the weapon to get behind the shield, if only to make a tiny little cut. Shields were good against onehanded swords and missile weapons, ok against axes and longswords, and horrible against flails

I believe all weapons damage the shield somewhat already. And personally, I feel the axes should retain the "bonus against shield" monopoly of the melee weapons. The force of impact from an axehead will always be greater than a sword's.

4) Include flails They should be able to damage to an opponent with a shield even if he blocks the attack. Game balance probably demands something like this:
Flail against blocking shield: Half or 1/3 of normal damage.
Non-flail against blocking flail (without shield, just the flail): Half or 1/3 of normal damage.

What about flail vs. blocking non-flail? And I don't think there should be more protection in not having a shield, if that's what you're suggesting.

 

[Bent Barbed Arrows]

Not a weapon expert here but I think all the previous posters have good points. It seems like the speed bonus you get for hitting at the peak of the swing animation is moot on horseback. If you're going 30mph past someone, doing 5dmg because of your timing is kind of silly.

I think some kind of "couched sword" type feature would be good. Either have your sword automatically move to the "clotheslining" position while your horse is at speed or have the swing animation be very shallow while at speed. In either case, the damage calculation for hitting from horseback should take the relative speed of the rider versus the target into account just like the couched lance formula does.

One kind of unrelated suggestion if the above is included is this: have low weight/ low damage weapons have a chance of getting caught in the victim if they hit at high speed. Lower chances for scimitars/sabers of course.

Naturally, the ability to retrieve objects from the battlefield would have to be put in first or this feature would be really annoying. Or have the stuck weapons reappear in inventory after a round like projectiles, presumably removed post mortem from the "thief."

 

[OrientalHero]

Yes its true that there was a couched position for cavalry using sabres. The blade was actually held with the front edge up and the arm extended with the rider bent low to get his body in line with the arm/sword. Then on impact, the sword hilt would more likely move up (and keep from losing the sabre) as the rider went past due to the up facing edge. This is from an account from my fencing teacher who saw the Kings Troop at the Earls Court Military Tatoo where they used to have sabre cavalry charges against pineapples on posts.

 

[Deus Ex]

So, you bumped a four month old thread just to CONFIRM something someone ELSE said?

Well at least HE added something valuable to the conversation

DE

 

[Amman d Stazia]

back to the booze, (hic) 'ryndil,


whats with the green smiley?  Too much mead meeted out?

 

[Deus Ex]

So, you bumped a four month old thread just to CONFIRM something someone ELSE said?

Well at least HE added something valuable to the conversation

DE

Well, how's THIS for useful you dumb sod!?

Blah blah blah everything I wrote

I whole-heartedly agree, I think it should prove a very viable solution.

Hmmm, did you miss the wink?

I was giving you a bit of a hard time.  At least his post was about fencing, and offered some insight based on personal experience.

On the other hand, castigating him for reviving an old thread, really did nothing to move the conversation along. 

Something along the lines of the pot calling the kettle black...

I will overlook the insult about unintelligent grass, and chalk that up to... I dunno, maybe being up late and not getting enough sleep...

Considering how much grief you give other folks, I am somewhat suprised you cannot take a bit of ribbing yourself..

DE

 

[Amman d Stazia]

yeah, i thought you were trying to drag your tongue out of your cheek, and failing miserably.
spam is foul.  don't eat it.
drink mead, whisky and wine.  forget beer, its too watery.

 

[Nak Nak the Merciless]

I know this is not exactly related to the thread (well, it is sword related) but do you think we'll ever see swords/spears etc impale people in M&B? Could be a difficult game dynamic to pull off correctly, however, I imagine it would be quite fun to put your sword through someone and then rush to pull it out in readiness for the next foe.