The long knife

[The Wandering Knight]

While the falchion was developed from the sword (possibly the Norwegian Long Sax) and saw great popularity in Italy, France and England, it was not as popular in Germany.

Instead, the Germans had a similar but contrasting weapon called the messer.  The contrast was mostly in the hilt configuration; falchions had quillions and pommels just like the contemporary double edge counterparts, and exchanged thickness of blade for wideness at the point of impact; the thickest falchion I've studied (working on a paper) is just 6mm at the thickest portion.  The messer had a slab tang configuration, much like heavy duty knives.  Instead of pommels, they had end caps and they featured side-rings or flanges projecting 90* from the quillions to protect the knuckles.  Their overall level of fit and finish appeared well below that of falchions.

There were two major types of messers.  The Grosses messer was a generally single handed weapon with a somewhat lengthened hilt.  The Kriegsmesser is a larger, curved, two handed variety.

Here are some videos depicting methods of fighting with the messer.  Three major sources of information exist on this fighting style.  They are Codex Wallerstein and Johannes Lecküchner's manuals, of which we have 2.  The last video appears a bit constrained due to the proximity in the port.  Was cold and windy out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38sVdx7nzhQ&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWISsk0cy74&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmq_Oc7RT48&feature=channel_page

M.

 

[mouthnhoof]

Interesting. Any chance we get to read this paper you are writing?

While we are on the subject, perhaps you can explain a few things: The technique vids show many moves intended to bring the point into the opponent. How adjusted to thrusting were these messers/falchions? Many reproductions do not seem to have a very effective point and some are even round at the tip. Was it common to have the back side of the blade with a sharpened edge toward the tip?

How heavy were these messers/falchions? You say they exchanged thickness for width, but did it result in a heavier/lighter blade? Was it somewhat flexible like Chinese sabers?

 

[The Wandering Knight]

Thanks for the reply.  The paper is WIP, and is undergoing revision to be less grammatically crap.  When I finish up an acceptable version, I'll host it here as well.

Messers are very thrust capable, and from what I recall stiff enough in the trust.  Early falchions have tips for thrusting, though a few examples do not.  All the later examples (14th c onwards) of falchions are rather thrust oriented; the Thorpe Falchion is probably the best known of these types.

Weight on the falchion range from 2-3 pounds (the extant Thorpe weighs just under 2 with corrosion, and the Conyers just shy of 3 in good condition).  I do not know the weights on extant messers (like the falchion, few examples have made it, though the messer is more common).  Reproductions I've seen are in the 1.5-2.5 pound range.  Messers show a lot of variety in form, and by the mid 15th century they begin to progress into sabers, changing cross section dramatically.

M.

 

[Kasimir]

Beautiful stuff. I will find this really helpful for my writing as well.

Hope your paper goes well!

 

[Farmind]

Similar long-knives can be found in several areas.

Finns used a long-knife know as "Väkipuukko". In old Finnish, word "väki" means "force" (as in "magical force" or "killing force") and "puukko" means "single-edged straight knife", so Väkipuukko would translate to something like "strong knife". The blade length was up to 50 cm long, and in some cases the blade was wider near the point as with modern machetes. Väkipuukko was much more common than sword, since Väkipuukko was cheap and could be used as tool while double-edged sword was only usable for fighting. The blade was sharpened either to "V" shape or to single bevel with no micro-bevels. Finnish Väkipuukko and German Messer are essentially similar weapons. 

The long-knife for the Saami in Lappland is known as "Leuku". A proper Leuku is made of non-hardened steel and has "V" shaped sharpening with no micro-bevels. Some modern manufacturers make Leukus which are just tourist-trinkets and only as long as a normal knife.

The most oblivious difference between Väkipuukko and Leuku is sheath. Leuku is carried in simple leather sheath which covers the whole knife and handle, so that only the handle end-cap is visible. Väkipuukko can be carried in a leather sheath or hardened scabbard, which can be highly decorated. The sheath does not cover the handle, so that Väkipuukko can have small handguard.

 

[The Wandering Knight]

I know of the Väkipuukko as the Seax; they sound very similar.

M.

 

[The Wandering Knight]

Further information, in text, can be found here:

http://www.schielhau.org/talmesser.html  (images and text)
http://www.schielhau.org/lebkommer.html  (text, begins very cryptic)
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00002184/images/index.html?id=00002184&fip=71.252.40.139&no=42&seite=1  (This one is a page by page high res photolog of CGM 582, with text and image).

Reproduction messers are a bit hard to find.  Cold Steel makes what they pretend is a Grossemesser, but it's not.  Albion has one production grossemesser (With another on the way) and a kriegsmesser:
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-grossemesser-soldat.htm
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-kriegsmesser-knecht.htm
Lutel has a few as well, somewhere on their site.

These techniques can be used with any single handed bladed weapon.  In fact, Talhoffer made a point to show an image of a regular sword in the hands of a man who is using a "messer" to get that point across.  This is the beauty of the messer; it's utilitarian, deadly and not a niche weapon like Paulus Kal's scythes or flail.

M.

 

[brasidus]

I love the messer. Next time Dr. Forgeng comes out for one of the RA jousts here I intend to grill him on messers.

So who do you study with MEMAG?

 

[The Wandering Knight]

I'm actually some 3 hours away from MEMAG, though I've been planning to transfer to the uni near them.  I'm hosting a seminar on messers just near my house this July, though.

M.

 

[The Wandering Knight]

Oh, and if any of you guys happen to be able to read Middle High German:  http://www.pragmatische-schriftlichkeit.de/transkription/trans_cgm582_s_e.pdf

M.

 

[mouthnhoof]

Here's another short question:
Who was the typical user of the grossemesser? Civilian / military / specific professions?

 

[The Wandering Knight]

From what I've gathered, it was a civilian and non-professional military thing.  Their fit/finish is generally not up to the level seen in arms used by the higher ranks.  A few works of period art show them in the hands of civilians, and I've seen them attached to soldiers as well.  I'll see about getting some specific examples.

I have a copy of Codex Wallerstein that was transcribed (taken from handwriting to more modern letters) and translated (into German and then into English).  It has a short chapter on messers (which the translator oddly calls "falchions" even though it clearly says messer in the original text), and one very peculiar plate that I love for it's hilarious wording.  Translated, it says:

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/155.jpg
So if you want to rob a peasant, pinch the skin on his throat and thrust through it, as shown, so that he thinks that you have cut his throat, and this does no harm.

The "peasant" is shown carrying a messer on his left side, over which he has a purse.  The "robber" is shown wearing a sword on the right.

If you want to see what the manual itself looks like, here's a link that has every page:
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/CodexW.htm

My copy cost about 50USD.  The messer bit is about 1/3 the way down.

M.

EDIT:  Ok, so that image is bigger than the entire forum...how do you resize with BB code again?

 

[The Wandering Knight]

Ok, as requested, I found a couple pictures of the messer that don't come from fighting manuals:

http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a54/comnder09/?action=view&current=Messer1.jpg
Messer with knuckle guard (later period advent, c. late 15th century).  Probably a house servent or page.

http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a54/comnder09/?action=view&current=Messer2.jpg
Middle fore-ground; civilian.

http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a54/comnder09/?action=view&current=Messer3.jpg
Lower right, on the puking guy (possible civilian)

http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a54/comnder09/?action=view&current=Messer4.jpg
Soldiers in the foreground.

http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a54/comnder09/?action=view&current=Messer7.jpg
Soldier.

http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a54/comnder09/?action=view&current=Messer8.jpg
Unsure where this comes from (other than a bible).  Could be David killing Goliath for all I know.  I'm going to say soldier only because the other man is in harness.

M.

 

[mouthnhoof]

Thanks for the education!

 

[stygN]

Looks really interesting!

A rather different style then swords with a false edge, since you can grab your own or your enemies sword with your offhand.

The handguard was a bit small I think.. It looked really easy to hurt the enemies swordhand, as seen in the videos.

But thanks for the info, never seen that weapon in use before : )

 

[Farmind]

http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a54/comnder09/?action=view&current=Messer1.jpg
Messer with knuckle guard (later period advent, c. late 15th century).  Probably a house servent or page.

It is interesting to see that the Messer scabbard has a side compartment for companion knife.

In Finland these two-blade scabbards are known as "Kaksihelainen" ("two ferrules"), since you can see the rear-ferrules (metal-capped pommel) of both weapons at the same time. The smaller utility knife known as "Jungi".

A "three-ferrule scabbard" contains long-knife, utility knife and sharpening tool. The sharpening tool can be a file or a burnshing rod, but I have also seen polishing stones carried in scabbard.