"The Holocaust on your Plate"

[Redcoat-Mic]

Why shouldn't animals lives not be as important as Humans lives? Because we won the race to become aware of conciousness? Wow.r.

Yes, we did. if you don't like it, go wallow around in some mud, but remember, you won't be able to come back to a warm house, with lights, tv, hot meals, and internet at night.

Does my warm house (with lights, TV, hot meals, and internet at night) cause torture and death?
And I find offence to the fact that you assume I care for animals that I wallow in mud, am I not allowed to be what's seen as civilized and give a damn about other species?

 

[Narcissus]

If you kill someone, for whatever reason, are they or are they not dead regardless of the reason? Yes, they are. My point stands.

So then self-defense is back to being a motive instead of the action?? 

Why shouldn't animals lives not be as important as Humans lives? Because we won the race to become aware of conciousness? Wow.
As Steven Hawking said "We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on an average planet with a very average star" or something along the line. Animals feel pain, we feel pain.
An animal doesn't have a house you can repossess, a wallet to steal, only it's life to take and what gives us the right to torture and eventually take away the only thing they'll EVER have?
Were as I do eat meat, I am not for the conditions they live in, I think the picture is not meant to show that it's completely the same thing but the conditions sure are. Pigs piled on top of each other is acceptable? I am aware that giving every animal a luxury spa treatment before we bolt them in the brain is impractical to deal with demand but they could certainly be made more efficient (as in some animals aren't left bleeding to death with a botched execution.)
I do not see the murder of a human different to the murder of an animal, seeing as we indeed are an animal. Of course it would be shocking as you don't see Humans murdered everyday, but we see animals dead all the time on TV, if we saw Humans that much we wouldn't give a crap about seeing dead Humans either.

By that same standard ... would you like to seperate every animal in the world so as to prevent unnecessary death?  Of course not ... because then what would you feed them ...

Welcome to the food chain ... the bigger, stronger, and smarter animals eat the others ... with a dash of salt.

Do I agree with inhumane treatment of animals?  Not at all.  Yet comparing their deaths to the holocaust is an insult (of the greatest magnitude) to those that suffered and lost their lives.

Narcissus

 

[ArabArcher35]

Why shouldn't animals lives not be as important as Humans lives? Because we won the race to become aware of conciousness? Wow.r.

Yes, we did. if you don't like it, go wallow around in some mud, but remember, you won't be able to come back to a warm house, with lights, tv, hot meals, and internet at night.

Does my warm house (with lights, TV, hot meals, and internet at night) cause torture and death?
And I find offence to the fact that you assume I care for animals that I wallow in mud, am I not allowed to be what's seen as civilized and give a damn about other species?

To make your warm house, trees had to be cut down. Chances are, these trees came from some rainforest in south america, and chances are, those trees were home to hundreds of animals. Thanks to YOU and your greedy need to have a nice place to live, those animals don't have a home! You should feel guilty about that!

To get your electricity, a dam had to be built, destroying the habitats of thousands of animals! For shame!

 

[Raz]

Why shouldn't animals lives not be as important as Humans lives? Because we won the race to become aware of conciousness? Wow.r.

Yes, we did. if you don't like it, go wallow around in some mud, but remember, you won't be able to come back to a warm house, with lights, tv, hot meals, and internet at night.

Does my warm house (with lights, TV, hot meals, and internet at night) cause torture and death?
And I find offence to the fact that you assume I care for animals that I wallow in mud, am I not allowed to be what's seen as civilized and give a damn about other species?

Apperantly, yes. There's animals in those hot meals of yours, animal's habitats are being destroyed for our furniture and power supply.

edit: AA beat me to it. Excactly my thoughts!

 

[thesneakster]

Why shouldn't animals lives not be as important as Humans lives? Because we won the race to become aware of conciousness? Wow.r.

Yes, we did. if you don't like it, go wallow around in some mud, but remember, you won't be able to come back to a warm house, with lights, tv, hot meals, and internet at night.

Does my warm house (with lights, TV, hot meals, and internet at night) cause torture and death?
And I find offence to the fact that you assume I care for animals that I wallow in mud, am I not allowed to be what's seen as civilized and give a damn about other species?

I am not saying that you should go cram yourself into a small pen with 50 pigs, or any other analogy with animals, i am just saying that yes, we did win the evolutionary race. I beleive that cramming animals into enclosures is bad, but i'm not about to start not killing them.

 

[Redcoat-Mic]

I was never arguing that it was a tasteful advert, or an accurate comparison, I was arguing against the points made after that had nothing to do with the picture.

How did you come to the conclusion I don't want death at all? Animals aren't aware of their conciousness, they live on instinct and "don't know better."
Using that logic, you could say that you could go kill the countries leader and take over his role of Alpha Male. You seem to have assumed that I claimed Animals and Humans are the same. I did not. I claimed lives are the same.

And please READ MY POSTS before anyone else jumps to the conclusion that I don't want animals to die for food. I EAT MEAT.
The only thing I object to is people dismissing holding Humans lives as far more important than an Animals life something I take deep offence to after working as a volunteer at rescue shelter. The life of an animal is equal to a Humans, I'm not saying that gassing Jews for Hitler is the same as killing for food.

 

[Narcissus]

The life of an animal is equal to a Humans

The hell it is ... and I'd love to see you face a holocaust survivor and tell them that a goat holds as much value as their dead family. 

That applies for anyone that has lost a loved one in any way, including me. If you were to face me and say that a squirrel in the forest has as much value as my dead brother, crippled or not, I would knock your teeth in.

Narcissus

 

[Redcoat-Mic]

My statements are intending to shock and offend, of course you'd value the life of someone you know more than someone you don't. You've completely got me wrong.
You're going to care more that someone close to you has died than someone you never met before died, that's never in question, personal feelings come into it there.
But what's the difference between a strangers life and an animals life where no personal feelings are held?
Would you care more if you read about a death of someone you didn't know or if you came home and someone was stabbing your dog to death.
I'm sorry if I offended you, wasn't my intention to get personal.

 

[Narcissus]

My statements are intending to shock and offend, of course you'd value the life of someone you know more than someone you don't. You've completely got me wrong.
You're going to care more that someone close to you has died than someone you never met before died, that's never in question, personal feelings come into it there.
But what's the difference between a strangers life and an animals life where no personal feelings are held?
Would you care more if you read about a death of someone you didn't know or if you came home and someone was stabbing your dog to death.
I'm sorry if I offended you, wasn't my intention to get personal.

First off ... I apologize.  This is the second time today that I didn't keep quiet when I should have and I sincerely apologize.

As for your questions:

I would care far more over a human life than an animal ... not knowing either.

I would care more about a human life (that I didn't know) than my dog ... I love my dog, but if that situation were changed to be my life or someone else's pet ... I would hope they would choose me.  (If it were a choice, of course)

Narcissus

 

[Merentha]

From most religious standpoints, humans have souls, whereas animals do not.  From my more secular view, it appears that humans are self-aware, whereas animals are not what most people would call sentient.  Further, there is a similarity between humans that makes it much easier for us to identify with other people, rather than with animals.  The further animals deviate from humans, the less affection people feel for them.  There is a reason mammals, and not cockroaches, are the pets of choice.

 

[Ilex]

The life of an animal is equal to a Humans

If you were to face me and say that a squirrel in the forest has as much value as my dead brother, crippled or not, I would knock your teeth in.

I could honestly say that your dead brother has as much value to me as a squirrel in the forest (the value being next to 0)... and even though I dislike others thinking their values are absolute and then forcing them to others, I wouldn't try to hurt you if you said what I quoted to my face, mainly because I am not a violent person.

 

[13 Spider Bloody Chain]

@ Henry and Narc:

It seems to me that this argument is somewhat biased. Henry has worked extensively with animals; thus, he has a stronger bond with them and considers them equal (or "more equal") to a human in terms of worth.

Narcissus, on the other hand, has felt loss, and thus values his bonds with humans more.

Unless both of you can go beyond your biases (and I don't mean this in a bad way), it will be difficult for you guys to discuss whether or not an animal's life is worth more than a human's, or vice versa.

 

[Redcoat-Mic]

First off ... I apologize.  This is the second time today that I didn't keep quiet when I should have and I sincerely apologize.

As for your questions:

I would care far more over a human life than an animal ... not knowing either.

I would care more about a human life (that I didn't know) than my dog ... I love my dog, but if that situation were changed to be my life or someone else's pet ... I would hope they would choose me.  (If it were a choice, of course)

Narcissus

It's fine, debates tend to get heated, I'm just sorry I hit a nerve.
I respect your opinion, and of course, when my life came into it I'd hope they chose me too but I'd hope they chose me over a human just the same, that's because I want to live.
I'll explain my views further, at the animal shelter I volunteered at I was forced to watch a stray dog put down (the workers were racist, abusive, gits, didn't care about the animals at all) and I saw my Great Uncle (but I didn't know him very well so please don't think I'm comparing our losses) on his death bed. Both were equally traumatising, I see death of any life as a terrible thing.
Again apologies for upsetting you.

 

[Mage246]

I've worked with animals alot, and I don't really value my connections with other people very much, but I still wouldn't place an animal above a person or even equal to a person. Well, that's not quite true. If it was someone I saw no value in, I might value a pet more, but unless I really wanted them dead I would still save the person instead of the animal if both were threatened.

 

[Narcissus]

Biased or not ... I never will believe that an animal's life holds as much value as a humans.  That is a pointless debate to me and always will be.

Am I against the death penalty, nope.  Am I against hurting animals unnecessarily, yes.

Am I against the politically correct mindset (the thing that is ruining the U.S.), absolutely.

Narcissus

 

[Balinux]

Ok, discarding the obvious diference between a person and an animal: u give life to an animal, u take care of it for a while, so u can eat it later. The nazis didnt kill to eat (at least i think not), they killed, because they thought they had the right to do so. Thats exactelly what killers Think! Not to speak of the lack of honnor it is to kill hundreds and thousands of defenseless people, just like that.

 

[ArabArcher35]

Ok, discarding the obvious diference between a person and an animal: u give life to an animal, u take care of it for a while, so u can eat it later. The nazis didnt kill to eat (at least i think not), they killed, because they thought they had the right to do so. Thats exactelly what killers Think! Not to speak of the lack of honnor it is to kill millions of defenseless people, just like that.

fixed.

 

[Balinux]

Thanks.

 

[Ilex]

they killed, because they thought they had the right to do so. Thats exactelly what killers Think!

That's what humans think. Most humans try to come up with something to justify their acts.

 

[Redcoat-Mic]

they killed, because they thought they had the right to do so. Thats exactelly what killers Think!

Actually, most people would kill if they were told to and they were in a threatening situation, saying it is solely the person is Dispositional Psychology which means that it's blamed solely on the person for what they do, whereas now it's accepted that Situational Psychology played a major part in it.
Read up on the Milgram Study for more about it, where a high percentage of average American's (something like 80%) of people would kill someone due to a threatening situation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_Study
That said, some did it because they were sick bastards.