The Glorious Return of The Sarranid Light Cavalry

[Old One-Eye]

So, yeah.

I've been messing about a bit with Morgh's Tools. Normally I'm very content with what Native has to offer and haven't really delved into the morass of mods as they seem to be into altering things that I think work fine or expand areas I'm (currently) not interested in.
Anyway, two things that has struck me is the neat Sarranid items available that are unused by troops and the second part is the lack of Light Cavalry outside the Khergit Khanate. So I've decided to look into that.

As it currently stands the Sarranids has a nicely diverse set of troop trees where every branch except one would be considered light and fast. Now light infantry in Warband, even elite troops like their Guards, really only has one advantage and that is that they move quickly. This "advantage", as I believe Archonsod put it, only means that they die faster than more slow-moving infantry. So I imagine most players does the sensible thing and train them into the Sarranid tank, the insta-win unit called the Mamluk. Which is an extremely powerful and expensive unit wearing lots of heavy metal. Before you get this unit you have to fart about with a decent but very boring medium cavalry unit called Horseman. As it stands, this is more or less balanced with the other two all-purpose factions, Swadia and Vaegir, which has more or less comparable troop trees for cavalry, ie infantry that gets a horse.

Now let's look at the Sarranid resources that are in the game but left more or less unused.

1. The Sarranid horse. Easily my favourite mount in Warband. Rather fast, amazingly maneuverable but not very durable it is a perfect archery platform but not good at all for charging into hordes with lots of pointy sticks. No Sarranid unit use them.
2. The Cavalry Robe. Decent protection and as light as Nomad armor (5.0) it is the second best light armor in the game. Unused.
3. Sarranid Leather Armor. A light armor that has fantastic protection for the legs (12). Only used by infantry.
4. Elite Scimitar. A great fast cavalry weapon that is only used (AFAIK) by a unit that has very little need for a fast weapon as they are the heavily armored Mamluke.
5. Sarranid Battle and War Axe. Can only be enabled as merchandise via Morgh's tools or similar and has a length (ca 90) that does not correspond with the look of the War Axe. The War axe looks like a long, light and fast axe and was probably intended to be used by Mamlukes and Guards. I have added them in and made them longer without changing their rather slow speeds. And removed the morningstar from Mamlukes.
6. The Desert Horse. A weak variant of the Steppe Horse. Only used by Desert Bandits.
7. More stuff.

Judging from this, I would wager that the Creators intended to let the Sarranids have Light Cavalry units and they were removed. If I would guess it was because Warband can't handle light cavalry very well. No one would use it. To put it in multiplayer terms, they would be severely underpowered compared to the Mamlukes. But let's be honest here. Light Cavalry is ineffective in Warband.

We move on to the land and the terrain. The desert is great for cavalry. The Sarranid lands are extremely stretched, I would guess that the distance Bariyye – Shariz is the longest any faction starts off with having to cover. So the elite archer and infantry units can move like cavalry. However, any soldier that isn't top-tier will slow you down. Let's take it a bit further. The desert is the best terrain in Warband for light cavalry. This can be attested by walking around with a low-level infantry unit and fighting Desert Bandits. They are very fast so chances are they will catch any infantry group they want to. And here's the thing. The Desert Bandits are completely crap in combat. The only good equipment they can get are jarids and Nomad Bows. They wear little armor and ride the most fragile horses in the game.

They are also, for me, one of the most fun encounters you can have and I would like having a similar military unit.

”Ohmigod, Sarranids are so OP and he wants them to get even better units, omg!!!!” I can hear you thinking. Be calm. As we have recognized earlier, light cavalry or skirmish cavalry completely sucks as a military unit in Warband. So unless you think the Khergit Skirmisher and Horseman are omg OP!!!, read on.

I would like to have the possibility to lead a light/skirmish cavalry unit in the Desert that uses the neat equipment already in the game. They would serve the purpose of hunting bandits and caravans, harassing enemy units in larger battles and generally creating all sorts of chaos in the world. They are poor against all heavy units, massed missile units and in sieges. I would also like them to be distinctly different from the Khergit Horse Archer units who use medium armor and medium to heavy horses. And they will only use thrown weapons since horse archers should remain the exclusive unit of the Khanate imo. Their purpose is not to make the Sarranid empire ”better” in terms of combat ability, I can almost guarantee that they won't, and I feel that they are a logical step for a faction that is all about speed and light units. (Except Mamlukes)

So without further ado, I give you: The Sarranid Raider!

Promoted from: Sarranid Skirmisher. If you want medium and heavy cav, you use the infantry route, same as before.

Sarranid Raider:
Lvl 19 (same as Archer)

Power Throw: 3
Riding: 5
Shield: 1
Horse Archery: 3

Equipment (possible): Jarids, Sarranid sword, Light Lance, Scimitar, winged mace, plain Cav shield. Sarranid Leather Armor, Sarranid L boots or Plated boots. Sarranid Warrior Cap or Desert Turban. Desert or Steppe horse.

Upgrades to
Sarranid Veteran Raider:

Lvl: 24 (same as Master Archer)

Ironflesh: 1
Power throw: 5
Shield: 2
Riding: 6
Horse Archery: 4

Equipment: Jarids or Throwing Spears. Sarranid Cavalry Sword or Elite Scimitar. Light Lance. Iron Mace. Elite Cav Shield. Cavalry Robe. Plated or Sarranid Mail boots. Horseman or Kheffiyeh helmet. Leather gloves. Sarranid Horse.

What do you guys think? Any feedback on skirmish cavalry in general is appreciated, I haven't implemented it fully yet and I don't have a plan on starting a mod (I'm just adding a militarly rather useless unit with equipment already in game) but I will gladly, of course, provide you with any files if you would like. If anyone has a better name, please post that as well. And if you already are doing something similar in your game, let us know.

Bottom line: This suggestion is only for us who love playing with and against light skirmish cavalry, they will certainly not win any real wars or large battles for you in Warband. Send these guys in against pretty much whatever top-tier unit in the game and they will die. Quickly but also very stylishly.

 

[hruza]

Not bad, you made pretty nice pick of skills and equipment for this type of troops. I am less sure about your place in troop tree but I guess it is hard to place such troop type in to 3 branch -cavalry -archer -infantry tree.

Problem is as you stated that AI handles light troops bad. In fact there is just one general AI for all troops so naturally more durable just gona last longer. Light cavalry would need its own AI to be really effective and perhaps more spacious battlefield -or low limit of troops in battle.

 

[user1324865215]

Good. This works well, but only if you use your troops as a "Light Cavalry"" Group consisting of the raiders.

 

[vota dc]

Even if you make donkey crossbowmen you get that +66% to upkeep price. Now your light cavalry has even a level more than the khergit more powerful unit. Give a little more strenght to sarranid raider: a light cavalry of 19 level is ok, a light cavalry of 24 level would cost too much or has to be stronger than khergit and it can't be possible since they are supposed to be kings of light cavalry.

 

[Old One-Eye]

Nice responses, thanks!

vota dc:
To be honest I just chose the levels of the Sarranid Archer branch for practical reasons, plus I didn't want to hand the Sarranids another great cavalry unit or diminish the usefulness of their archer line which I happen to think is pretty decent. And I wanted a unit to fit the neat gear. I didn't think about the +66% upkeep cost and I'll be sure to check out how the Khergits level. However, both the Lancer and the Vet Horse Archer has better, even a lot better, armor and better protected mounts than the Raiders, and (this is rather important imo) a Raider only carries 4 missiles. That's four ranged shots, compared to a HA with 34. After that, they will have to get in close which the maneuverability of the Sarranid Horse is excellent for. The Survivability however, is not so good. The first tier Raider is basically a slightly beefed up Desert Bandit with slightly better armor. I've also changed their gear to include the possibility of the Sarranid Archer's Vest which has less body armor but great leg armor.

hruza and Mrr.Phil:
It goes without saying that the Raiders require special handling and care. Remember Lezalit's quick brief on the various factions where he mentions how he would use Khergit Horse Archers "to find and fix the enemy"? If you do that with Raiders in Warband they will most certainly both find and (briefly) fix the enemy and then die rather quickly and messily. What does work is to hold them back until after the collision of the main forces and then send them into the chaos. It seems the AI is more likely to use missiles from horseback when the enemy is scattered. Of course, leading a group of Raiders around to the rear of a charging enemy force and letting them rip into the archers - that's what they do best.

My intent with this was mainly because roaming around the desert with a gang of ca 30 skirmish cavalry is what I enjoy most at the moment. I can scout out the enemy, hunt bandits and caravans, support in larger battles, trade like there's no tomorrow and never ever get caught by anything I can't handle. I can also play as a Brigand/independent and harass and raid a faction I have decided are scum for some reason. And I'll rather make the Raider a less than optimal unit than creating something which is better than the existing troop trees.

 

[tyrannicide]

You should have a look at Pike&Blade. Great troops, great horsies.

Pardon that this is somewhat beside the point.

 

[hruza]

It goes without saying that the Raiders require special handling and care. Remember Lezalit's quick brief on the various factions where he mentions how he would use Khergit Horse Archers "to find and fix the enemy"? If you do that with Raiders in Warband they will most certainly both find and (briefly) fix the enemy and then die rather quickly and messily. What does work is to hold them back until after the collision of the main forces and then send them into the chaos.

Yes, that is exactly what I do with my veteran horse archers and they seems to do fine. However this work only as far as your army core is made of some heavier units. Sometimes I first charge my heavy horse in to enemy and order horsearchers to hold position just bit to the side of main battle. They are most accurate from close and while stationary. Enemy is engaged with my other units so he does not cover himself with shields too much anymore. Once Enemy is scattered and fleeing I let my horsearchers loose.

 

[Baguette Eater]

That what i though about sometime ago, but instead of making a new branch i figured it would be better to overwrite the mamluke and rebalance the other troops, that way we get a good balanced faction and swadia remains the master of the Heavy Cavalry,

 

[Old One-Eye]

bobthehero:
Well, that is a whole other can of worms since that would involve changing the game. I'm only interested in adding to the game. In fact, I see it as only using resources that are already in the game in a logical and above all fun way.

The Raiders take quite some time to level (for now they will retain their high levels) and are also more expensive than any Khergit troop. I find this reasonable since a Sarranid player has far more options open to him than a Khergit player. The Sarranids has access to good archers, decent infantry and great heavy cavalry while the Khergits are "stuck" with light to medium cavalry only. So the Raiders will be very maneuverable and deal out good damage but will be far more vulnerable than all other top-tier cavalry. In prolonged battles their horses will die and then they will too. For fast strikes against vulnerable foes (archer units, bandits, light infantry and caravans) they should hold their own and should also prove useful in most support roles. As an example:

Ready your troops. Let archers fire on the advancing enemy. Charge the Mameluks. Charge the infantry. Charge the Raiders, preferably from the enemy rear or a flank.

 

[Old One-Eye]

Initial tests look promising. Good results versus light and medium opponents with some losses. The AI handle them really well, they alternate between charging with lance or sword and doing the Horse Archer turn to launch their jarids. Haven't used them against massed crossbowmen or heavy cavalry yet. Cost is looking good, a Veteran Raider cost slightly less than a Khergit Lancer but takes longer to uppgrade into. More info tomorrow. With pretty pictures!

 

[Schemer]

They have good offense, but like you said, they die pretty easily (as intended). I like these troops. Good job on coming up with them.

隐藏

 

[Old One-Eye]

Well, I'll look into the new patch but it is clear that they've remade the Sarranid Cav line. Both Horsemen and Mameluks can now get the Sarranid horse and Horsemen has a chance of Cavalry Robes. I'd say the new Horsemen are similar to the Raiders but without the ranged component. I'll play around for a bit and see how it looks. I am definitely planning on returning to this topic.

 

[Outlawed]

Hmm. I really like the first post and both the units you've came up with here.
Warband really didn't give justice (historically) for the Arabic Light Cavalry that dominated the crusades. We all know that archery isn't as effective as it would be IRL in Warband due to multiplayer/good AI aim reasons.
For me, I always wanted to change native a little bit and make it more realistic, by:
1- Improving archery by making it worse; Certain bows would get slower shooting rates, others will get sped up. Arrows will do more damage, archers can carry more arrows into the field. Warbows to be made more inaccurate. Short and Strong bows to have less 'hold time' Its really hard to keep a Strong Bow strung fully while riding a horse. Which means a HA must be able to string the bow and shoot almost instantly without having much time to aim/move around while stringing. Increase throwing weapon power DRASTICALLY.
2- With the Archery and Throwing improvement, Light Cav including HA and this new found unit, if they outnumber, can now destroy almost anything other than Huscarls with shields. The proper name for these units, which basically started appearing historically at around 800 AD, the time of the Rashidun Caliphate was the "Mutahari-kee Al-Talee'a" It basically means 'Frontal Maneuver Movement Units', I think they are called Frontal Guard in English. They basically were the main force of any Arabic army until the early Crusades, when they realized that they needed more armor to combat European heavy units.
So I'd suggest you'd change the name to Sarranid Talee'a =p

 

[Old One-Eye]

I've been looking through the Sarranid troops with Morgh's tools and have discovered quite a few oddities in troop skills and equipment. I also wanted to upload my troops.txt for anyone who wants to try out the Raiders but haven't decided on exactly how just yet.

The biggest error I found was that the Sarranid Veteran Footman has 0 Athletics. That means that a third-tier light infantry unit, also one of the more numerous in AI armies, is the slowest unit both in battle and in on the world map. And that it is far slower than "normal" Footman. (I think we can see some remnants of the original intent to let the Sarranids have light cavalry here.) I also discovered why Desert Bandits never ever hit with their jarids, they lack PT but have PD 3. I've also given the Raiders lesser but much cooler looking headgear and swapped some weapons. I don't believe that these fixes make the Sarranid faction much better than it is, but rather that it should now perform as it was intended to.

Troop fixes:

Sarranids:

Desert Bandit: Changed PT 0, PD 3 to PT 1, PD 2. Previously a Desert Bandit had almost zero chance of hitting with their jarids. Changed jarids to javelins.

Skirmisher has 1 PT but come equipped with Jarids (2 PT req). Took the useless point in PD and moved it to 2 PT.
Switched Ride 3, Athletics 2 to Ride 2 Athletics 3.
Same switch for Archer.

Veteran Footman has 1 Ride and 0 Athletics. Switched and increased to 2 Athletics, 0 Ride.
Switched 1H (85-100) and Throwing (100-85) proficiencies. Normal Footman kept with 2 Athletics.


Added Sarranid Raider and Sarranid Veteran Raider to Skirmisher troop tree.
Note: Only the player should get this unit unless you change party_templates.txt.

Sarranid Raider:

Lvl 19

100 in all weapons profs except Throwing – 120.
PT 3, Shield 2, Ride 4, HA 4.

Weapons (possible): Sarranid sword, scimitar, Boar spear, light lance, jarids, winged mace. Plain Cavalry shield. Guaranteed jarids and shield.

Armor (possible): Sarranid leather boots or plated boots. Archer's Padded vest or Sarranid Leather Armor. Desert Turban.

Desert Horse.

Upgrades to

Sarranid Veteran Raider

Lvl 24.

110 weapon prof in 1H and Polearms. 140 in Throwing.
Ironflesh 1, PS 2, PT 4, Shield 4, Ride 6, HA 6.

Weapons (possible): Sarranid cavalry sword, Elite Scimitar, light lance, hafted blade, jarids, Throwing Spears, Iron Mace. Elite or Round Cavalry shield. Guaranteed jarids and shield.

Armor (possible): Sarranid plate or mail boots. Cavalry robe. Sarranid Warrior Cap. Leather Gloves.

Sarranid Horse.


Female Merc line:

Removed Plate Armor from Sword Sisters.

Gave Camp defender PD 1 so it can use it's possible Shortbow. Switched Athletics (2-3) and Ride (3-2) skills.

Gave Huntress hunting bow instead of shortbow (which it couldn't use due to no PD).
Switched Athletics (0-1) and Ride (1-0) skills. Removed chance of Crossbow (Lt Crossbow remains.
Guaranteed to get ranged.

Misc:
Removed Plate Armor from all troops (Swadian Prison and Castle guards) except King Harlaus.

***

I'll look into uploading this somewhere for people who enjoy playing with or against the Sarranids.