SP - General The gameplay loop again.

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Kreu2009

Sergeant
I played the game for 128 hours.
Thats quite a lot already. With many games it would be completely normal to move on now.
Taking a break is what im going to do. At least until the next update.

So here is my feedback. (Played the beta on highest difficulty.)
I think the game has a lot potential but right now it has some flaws. (I know its early access btw).

The reason why i need a break is because how repetitive the main gameplay loop is.
Its the exact same issue i had with warband.
You get soldiers you level them up by fighting, repeat. Thats it.
The problem is the fights are most of the time not challenging at all and they happen way to often.
To give an example here is my last gameplay session.

I was a vassal of Vlandia. My faction was already pretty strong. When we where suddenly at war with Batania, Sturgia and Khuzait i finally expected some intense moments.
All i did the entire war was defending my villages against an endless stream of attackers.
I defeated a lord, sold him and one day later he was back agains. I fought approximately 40 battles and not a single one was fun.
In all battles together i maybe lost 35 soldiers. Everytime i was just slaughtering some recruits.

So these are the problems:
1.To many battles. Lords "recover" to fast from a defeat. That basically forces you to execute them.
2. Battles are not challenging enough. Enemy soldiers are almost always low tier units even from the stronger factions.
3. Losing soldiers is to big of a problem. Even if i could get some challenging battles, I will most of the time avoid them, because i would have to go throug the grind of leveling troops up again. Doesn't mather how much money i already have there is no way around the grind.
4. No other ways to get mid or hight tier troops but by fighting.
5. Not enough to do besides fighting.

Some of these problems are "easy" to solve some not.
More side quests that challenge you with someting else than fighting, some rewarding you with mid tier troops would already help with point three, four and five.
Point one and two are more tricky because tweaking them could make faction snowballing worse.
But in the end i think a solution needs to be found.
 
This needs more views. I want to love this game but the loop is terrible once you have a few fiefs. I can't do anything other than ran back and forth between villages to stop them from being raided. The last 4 hours of game play have been nothing but this. I finally started executing everyone I caught but we are at war with every faction so here with go with no telling how many more hours of defending the same villages. Its made worse by the fact the raiding parties are only 50 or so troops strong but if I auto resolve my top tier troops always die. So i'm left with starting the fight, making everyone charge, and going to do something else for 5 minutes while they chase down the handful of troops that wont retreat.
 
I played the game for 128 hours.
Thats quite a lot already. With many games it would be completely normal to move on now.
Taking a break is what im going to do. At least until the next update.

So here is my feedback. (Played the beta on highest difficulty.)
I think the game has a lot potential but right now it has some flaws. (I know its early access btw).

The reason why i need a break is because how repetitive the main gameplay loop is.
Its the exact same issue i had with warband.
You get soldiers you level them up by fighting, repeat. Thats it.
The problem is the fights are most of the time not challenging at all and they happen way to often.
To give an example here is my last gameplay session.

I was a vassal of Vlandia. My faction was already pretty strong. When we where suddenly at war with Batania, Sturgia and Khuzait i finally expected some intense moments.
All i did the entire war was defending my villages against an endless stream of attackers.
I defeated a lord, sold him and one day later he was back agains. I fought approximately 40 battles and not a single one was fun.
In all battles together i maybe lost 35 soldiers. Everytime i was just slaughtering some recruits.

So these are the problems:
1.To many battles. Lords "recover" to fast from a defeat. That basically forces you to execute them.
2. Battles are not challenging enough. Enemy soldiers are almost always low tier units even from the stronger factions.
3. Losing soldiers is to big of a problem. Even if i could get some challenging battles, I will most of the time avoid them, because i would have to go throug the grind of leveling troops up again. Doesn't mather how much money i already have there is no way around the grind.
4. No other ways to get mid or hight tier troops but by fighting.
5. Not enough to do besides fighting.

Some of these problems are "easy" to solve some not.
More side quests that challenge you with someting else than fighting, some rewarding you with mid tier troops would already help with point three, four and five.
Point one and two are more tricky because tweaking them could make faction snowballing worse.
But in the end i think a solution needs to be found.
This needs more views. I want to love this game but the loop is terrible once you have a few fiefs. I can't do anything other than ran back and forth between villages to stop them from being raided. The last 4 hours of game play have been nothing but this. I finally started executing everyone I caught but we are at war with every faction so here with go with no telling how many more hours of defending the same villages. Its made worse by the fact the raiding parties are only 50 or so troops strong but if I auto resolve my top tier troops always die. So i'm left with starting the fight, making everyone charge, and going to do something else for 5 minutes while they chase down the handful of troops that wont retreat.
Same problems as we've had in warband, I just hope the fully flushed missing features at least address these issues. If not, this game will only really be good with mods =(
 
I just hope the fully flushed missing features at least address these issues.

I really hope so too. It is honestly not so easy to offer change in a game like Mount an Blade. I don't think there are proper sneaking mechanics to allow for any kind of stealth quests. Quests that need you to persuade somebody could work if the dialogue mechanics get a bit more fleshed out. But i think a lot of people don't enjoy quests like that. Would be fun if the board games could be included in some sidequests.
If administration of your thiefs would be more complex that could offer a lot of change. But again i can't tell how many people dislike managing their fiefs. Also activitys like hunting if done right, could be fun.
 
The one that irks me the most is defeating a lord only to see him come back so quickly at the head of an army.
Keeping them prisoner is pointless as they escape way too quickly and execution relation hits are just not worth it imo.
The massed ranks of recruits also makes battles one sided once you have ranked up your troops.
If i raid a village or attack a caravan i get companions moaning andd take relation hits.
Enemy lords seem to be able to do these things without the negative effects.
I think enemy lords that constantly raid villages and caravans should get a trait that allows you to execute them for little to no loss.
 
The one that irks me the most is defeating a lord only to see him come back so quickly at the head of an army.
Keeping them prisoner is pointless as they escape way too quickly and execution relation hits are just not worth it imo.
The massed ranks of recruits also makes battles one sided once you have ranked up your troops.
If i raid a village or attack a caravan i get companions moaning andd take relation hits.
Enemy lords seem to be able to do these things without the negative effects.
I think enemy lords that constantly raid villages and caravans should get a trait that allows you to execute them for little to no loss.
Yeah totally agree.
 
+1
I totally get that sentiment, it is why i proposed on many occasions to approach this game from a strategy and roleplay game perspective and not from a combat simluator one. If all i want is combat i can just play far better games of this genre like Mordhau or Total War.
I still strongly advise the devs to take a look at CK2, since it is both a gem of roleplay and feudal strategy at the same time.
Interaction between characters should be the core mechanic of this game and on that mechanic you could build the strategy part. Helping people because of their social network and status and not helping others because of theirs. Fief and kingdom management, which again should be heavily intertwined with the character interaction part. Succession,rivalries,friendship,powerplays within and outside the realm, all this should be the core of the singleplayer experience and a decent combat experience would then just be another nice complementary feature and not as it is now, the only real gameplay that matters.
The fact that the combat becomes a borefest for anyone who ever played a similiar combat simulator and spent some hours learning the clunky command UI doesn't help the fact, that this game, as it is now, has no replay value.

I want to add that my definition of what good roleplay is, seems to differ very much from what other people see as roleplay. For many people here it seems to be enough that you can play a trader, a smith or a Gladiator and have a skill tree, to make something a roleplaying experience.
For me that is just the most primitive form of roleplay imagineable. A good roleplaying game gives you sandboxy freedom, while at the same time providing you with interesting stories and difficult choices to make. There is no real story in Bannerlord, neither in the quests, nor in the playerdriven aspect, except if you really go full force yourself to fill up the holes in narrative yourself, hich is the whole game.
There is a single narrative and that is your climb to power, how you do that exactly you can choose, still it always boils down to money and influence and the goal is always the same....
 
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I have 300+ hours and dont see what youre seeing even if i can understand some of your points youre making and that ofc this game could be more fleshed out which they are working on at the moment. Being a grind training troops however isnt an issue at all! You get em so fast upgraded now that its bit ridiculous. And yes there are a way to get mid tier troops by just doing nothing and goes in to the Leadership perk ( or you where referring to training grounds type of mini game ?).
But yeah i can agree that it has become bit to easy now, but my guess it is because people wanted it so and they sort of adjusted it in to that direction and that they might need another difficulty level. But well they did adjusted it a little by having your troops dying on simulation against looters so people couldn't farm em anymore without any risk which was a big + (how ever it needs to be adjusted). Also i dont see all those low tier armies on the battlefield like you do even if they do occur at times (but usually from those commanders you just defeated and ransomed).
Can recommend you doing a Foot soldier play thru, usually more to think about then :smile: I did a berserker only playthru once with low armor on my main and was a blast and demanded a lot more tactics ^^

Seems more to me that you guys have ran out of imagination and have fatigue :wink: Think this game is better then Warband in my opinion even if Warband was a great game and they surely made a great sequel to it. And we cant just shove more and more ideas in different directions either all the time (if you catch my drift). Because a game must focus on being finished to its core first then modding the **** out of it along with balancing that and making it work properly...This it will be anyways from modding heroes out there ^^

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Less talking, more raiding!!
 
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I still strongly advise the devs to take a look at CK2, since it is both a gem of roleplay and feudal strategy at the same time.
Interaction between characters should be the core mechanic of this game and on that mechanic you could build the strategy part. Helping people because of their social network and status and not helping others because of theirs. Fief and kingdom management, which again should be heavily intertwined with the character interaction part. Succession,rivalries,friendship,powerplays within and outside the realm, all this should be the core of the singleplayer experience and a decent combat experience would then just be another nice complementary feature and not as it is now, the only real gameplay that matters.

I agree with this. When I have reflect on what sort of things could really make this game dynamic, my mind often wanders back to thinking about CK2’s mechanics. These things would add great meaningfulness to our battles. The most fun I have is when I am getting revenge on a faction for daring to challenge me, though in those circumstances I created my own meaning for the battle. It would be nice if in the future there was something to give meaning to the battles such as contests of succession, rivalries, or power plays.

I also understand that the bedrock of this game is its battle simulations and sieges. Everything else orbits the battle simulations: we need money to maintain armies, we need items so we do better in simulations, we need relations with notables to recruit troops for our armies, we need garrisons to hold our possessions while we go off and fight in simulations, etc. That being said, I understand why so much of Early Access gameplay is soaking in combat...they basically are trying make that bedrock is solid before they add the bells and whistles.
 
I also understand that the bedrock of this game is its battle simulations and sieges. Everything else orbits the battle simulations: we need money to maintain armies, we need items so we do better in simulations, we need relations with notables to recruit troops for our armies, we need garrisons to hold our possessions while we go off and fight in simulations, etc. That being said, I understand why so much of Early Access gameplay is soaking in combat...they basically are trying make that bedrock is solid before they add the bells and whistles.

I share the view that the combat should be a core mechanic, since it by itself can be really engaging and fun, if they manage to make it so. But i dont agree that it should be THE central feature form which all other features draw their raison d'etre. The fact that everything else beside battle is just there so you can battle better is for me, the major flaw of this game. For me ideally, battles while really fun, would be just an extension of character interaction and thus roleplay and strategy,
As of now you want to own a fief, a caravan or a workshop, because it makes you money and influence, with which you can engage in combat better than without. In my ideal Bannerlord you would own these operations, because of roleplay (this would necessitate actual character interaction to run these operations, which at the moment it doesnt) and then to further your characters interests in his role, you could use brute force, but you could also use other methods, like calculating manipulations and stealth.
Of course as it is now, nothing keeps me from just roleplaying as a merchant or artisan, but there is nothing to really do in those roles. There are no unique stories or interactions linked to that playsytle, except ''wow, today i made more or less money than yesterday''...
If i own a shop in town or maybe even own a sprawling workshop network across the whole continent, nothing changes in my interaction with people. I am not part of any city specific power struggles between gangs or local notables. People dont engage differently wiht me because i am the sole provider of jobs for a huge part of the population and so on. It is just a passive value printer, nothing more.
But i want it to be the core mechanic and battle just a solid and fun extension, not the other way around.
 
The one that irks me the most is defeating a lord only to see him come back so quickly at the head of an army.
Keeping them prisoner is pointless as they escape way too quickly and execution relation hits are just not worth it imo.
The massed ranks of recruits also makes battles one sided once you have ranked up your troops.
If i raid a village or attack a caravan i get companions moaning andd take relation hits.
Enemy lords seem to be able to do these things without the negative effects.
I think enemy lords that constantly raid villages and caravans should get a trait that allows you to execute them for little to no loss.
So true.
 
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