The FC's North American Duel Tournament 1.0b

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The previous few pages seem very good, full on interesting ideas, though I've been trying to wait until the tournament is over to express a few of my observations.

The idea of including both speed was in light of the fact that I wanted a large tournament with people I've played in both medium and fastest settings. I do not believe the NA community is large enough to have a single speed tournament (unless the new players who aren't aware of the organized side of Warbands join in large numbers).

The tournament, despite all the controversy it has sparked was actually simple to create. I hate to sound like a guy peddling a website but http://challonge.com/ is an excellent tool for the creation of single/double/roundrobin tournaments. And http://kmleague.net/ for you tech savvy people.

I thought the mixture of fastest and medium setting would be resolved once we moved on to the ladder tournament which was my old plan. The higher ranked player would always be challenged by a lower ranked player thus always giving him the advantage of picking speed.

But perhaps the creation of two different leagues (fastest/medium) each with its own cropped play-off tournament crowning two different champions. Maybe adding a few random inter-divisional matches for fun. The two champions would meet in an aggregated home/away Final Match (where away kills count more than home kills).

I'm just tossing ideas out there.
 

Kitten-mew!

Knight at Arms
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If only there was a convenient server just plopped between the two continents so we could have massive tournaments.
 

MadocComadrin

Water-Borne Annelid
Count
M&BWBWF&S
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We could build an island out of recylced soda bottles like that one rich guy did and house a data-center on it!
 

Mad_Dawg

Count
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Aye Fort, I think many have forgot that this an ongoing ladder tournament and this first set of rounds is establishing a ranking base.

I'm looking forward to the rise and fall in the following system.

Two league's is actually a very good idea.
 

LordHasek

Knight
WB
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Kitten-mew! said:
Miaou! I wouldn't know all of the stats between Fastest and Medium, so I'd have to take your word for it. I am but a humble kitty who likes poking at chess analogies if only because kitties like chess pieces. They make good foods, om nom nom nom. :3 Though, the faster time control systems have had thought put into them - it's just that most people think the thought isn't very good. In theory, you're only reducing one element (time). In practice, you're changing the opening book of each player, the available number of stratagems, the window of opportunity to play counters, the margin for error, and so on and so forth.

Personally? I have fun on both. I maybe have a little more fun on Fastest, if only because chambering feels so damn satisfying on that setting. I love Medium too. If I were any good at making those fancy pictures to do brackets, I'd run tournaments instead of wanting to enter them because I play like a fried load of dog poop. ;_; In fact, maybe I will! What happened to that KoA dueling tournament, anyways..?
You hit the nail on the head with this observation Kitten. Strictly speaking, Fastest needs better reflexes to perform the same moves executed on Medium. Fastest also exacerbates ping differences, though I do not believe this argument holds in a competitive setting because ping is always going to be an issue and good players will still triumph in spite of ping variation. Look at the CS community which has its competitive divisions split by region for just such reasons. Fastest also has legitimate problems; including a much higher percentage of incorrect animations where blocked swings pass through an opponent and weapons such as the spear able to swing faster than a person's block recovery time.

I thought the mixture of fastest and medium setting would be resolved once we moved on to the ladder tournament which was my old plan. The higher ranked player would always be challenged by a lower ranked player thus always giving him the advantage of picking speed.

But perhaps the creation of two different leagues (fastest/medium) each with its own cropped play-off tournament crowning two different champions. Maybe adding a few random inter-divisional matches for fun. The two champions would meet in an aggregated home/away Final Match (where away kills count more than home kills).
I definitely agree with your choices for this tourney Fort, and I think that if you create two separate tournaments next time you will get a high number of people signing up for both of the tournaments. Alternatively, you may wish to add a rule where either both players agree on a combat speed or half of the matches must be played on each combat speed if there is a disagreement.

Honestly, I don't think the duels between rhade and I showed a lot of skill, other than consistent blocking. We were confined in the middle of the arena so not a lot of footwork. Plus we both used big weapons, a great sword and a heavy bastard respectively, d so the attacks were kinda slow. There was no chambering involved (I know, I usually chamber a lot, but rhade was beating me when I chambered in the practices, so I stopped that); the most advanced thing was holds and feints. And I used a lot of double swings to win. So not that exciting, just long as we're both exceptional blockers.
Interestingly enough, I agree with you X. Rhade's style is heavily dependent on quick reflexes and the extremely short windows for attacking on FCS. On medium, this style simply doesn't translate effectively because the attacks come slowly enough it just ended up being a bit of a snooze fest where you two swung and blocked back and forth for 5 minutes at a time until one of you finally made a mistake. There were no chambers because Rhade had not acclimated himself to the different chamber speeds on medium and this meant we saw holds and feints as the primary offensive choices for both players. 
 
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Seasonal tournament 2.0?

What do you guys think of the following format......

Season
2 leagues (one fastest, one medium)
4 Divisions per league each with 6 players
Total of 8 Divisions
24 players in fastest 24 players in medium
Each player will face all opponents in his/her division once. 5 Matches
Each player will face one opponent in each of the other 3 divisions within the league. 3 Matches.
Each player will face two opponent from the opposite league. 2 Matches.
Total of 10 matches for each player.
Season is complete

Post-Season
Top 2 teams in each of the 8 Divisions will play each other in a single elimination league tournament. 3 Matches at most (4 if wild-cards are added).
Seeds will be based on the Win-Loss record acquired during the season (k/d used to break ties).
League Champion moves on to the Warbands Fastest v Medium Duel Cup (A bit unimaginative I know, suggestions?)

League Champions will face each other in a two-legged fixture (Home/Away) with aggregate scoring. The champion with best record acquired during the season will pick which leg he wants to do first. In case of a tie, Away kills will determine the winner. In case away kills are equal.... (must be resolved)

Issues I foresee:
-Timing (scheduling, fighting and waiting), each player will have 10 matches to complete in the regular season. Fixed matches may alleviate scheduling conflicts allowing the player to fight them in the most efficient manner but will diminish any climactic match-ups since players will be arbitrarily dueling each other in a rush to complete the schedule. As in the previous tournament some players, do to unforeseen circumstances will lag, other may drop out completely. Perhaps a requirement for players to complete a minimum of 1 (maybe even 2) match/s per week will twist some arms and keep the tournament moving. Any ideas on how we would keep it moving in a fair, not too fast not too slow pace?

-I also think this format will prove too much for any one person. The person running it all would need help in keeping track of the scores and statistics. Perhaps assigning people to head leagues and division he/she is not a part of. For example, JohnSmith Keeps track of Fastest Division 1 but participates in Medium Division 2 (perhaps the use of another website in which assigning admins would be an easier task).

-Keeping interest level up. For the first couple of weeks this should be no problem. The issue arises when player's interest starts to lag, either because he or she is not interested anymore (for whatever reason). I try to alleviate some of this by scheduling 5 matches outside the division. Players can become a spoiler not only in his/her own division but also in 5 other divisions. But I think this will not be enough. Perhaps giving players who have actively participated in this tournament preferred places.

-Incorporating clan and players. I assume the best way to form divisions would be following the world cup draw format. A random draw of players into successive divisions limiting the number of player in the same clan and in the same division to 3 (half the total number of the division). It is possible to easily incorporate 2 wild card players from each league into the playoff system (opening the play-off window for players who were unlucky to get stuck in a particularly competitive division.)

Hypothetical Season Schedule
1st Match          2nd        3rd        9th        10th 4th 7th 5th 6th 8th
Divsions/Teams
F Division 1
Team A- B C D E F G M S A* G*
Team B- A C D E F H N T B* H*
Team C- A B D E F I O U C* I*
Team D- A B C E F J P V D* J*
Team E- A B C D F K Q W E* K*
Team F- A B C D E L S X F8 L*

F Division 2
Team G- H I J K L A M S G* M*
Team H- G I J K L B N T H* N*
Team I- G H J K L C O U I* O*
Team J- G H I K L D P V J* P*
Team K- G H I J L E Q W K* Q*
Team L- G H I J K F R X L* R*

F Division 3
Team M- N O P Q R A G S M* S*
Team N- M O P Q R B H T N* T*
Team O- M N P Q R C I U O* U*
Team P- M N O Q R D J V P* V*
Team Q- M N O P R E K W Q* W*
Team R- M N O P Q F L X R* X*

F Division 4
Team S- T U V W X A G M S* A*
Team T- S U V W X B H N T* B*
Team U- S T V W X C I O U* C*
Team V- S T U W X D J P V* D*
Team W- S T U V X E K Q W* E*
Team X- S T U V W F L R X* F*

1st Match          2nd        3rd        9th        10th 4th 7th 5th 6th 8th
Divsions/Teams
M Division 1
Team A- B C D E F G M S A* G*
Team B- A C D E F H N T B* H*
Team C- A B D E F I O U C* I*
Team D- A B C E F J P V D* J*
Team E- A B C D F K Q W E* K*
Team F- A B C D E L S X F8 L*

M Division 2
Team G- H I J K L A M S G* M*
Team H- G I J K L B N T H* N*
Team I- G H J K L C O U I* O*
Team J- G H I K L D P V J* P*
Team K- G H I J L E Q W K* Q*
Team L- G H I J K F R X L* R*

M Division 3
Team M- N O P Q R A G S M* S*
Team N- M O P Q R B H T N* T*
Team O- M N P Q R C I U O* U*
Team P- M N O Q R D J V P* V*
Team Q- M N O P R E K W Q* W*
Team R- M N O P Q F L X R* X*

M Division 4
Team S- T U V W X A G M S* A*
Team T- S U V W X B H N T* B*
Team U- S T V W X C I O U* C*
Team V- S T U W X D J P V* D*
Team W- S T U V X E K Q W* E*
Team X- S T U V W F L R X* F*

*Opposite League
 

Outlawed

Sergeant Knight
WB
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Fort.
That's quite brilliant.

As for the administrative problems.
I think it should be fine.

I propose setting say 5 days per 'match duration' and if the result isn't handed in, its set as a tie, each player gets a point. (assuming that it would be 1 for tie/not dueled, 3 for win and none for lose?)

Also, you might want to recruit some sort of admin team as you said yourself to be able to organize all this stuff.
I could write a simplejava app and keep score and update things if you like.
 

KoA John

Duke
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Yeah I started the faster trend with the KoA server being on faster  :oops:


It seems to be coverting alot of players  :grin:

I found it is a good mix of fastest and medium
 

Rhade

Master Knight
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Risking posting again and having the anti-Rhade community having another field day with all their pent-up animosity and lack of sexual relations with the opposite gender:

My opinion on the next tournament is that if two players come up against each other, one being a "fastest" player and one being a "medium" player, the tournament should still be best of 7, and the higher seed player picks a server, the lower seeded player picks a server. The higher seeded player's server is played until one of the two players reaches the score of 4, and the next server, picked by the lower player, is played until the score of 3 is reached.

There are some holes, yes, but I think it would keep the community intact, in the same tournament, while still allowing players the ability to compete on their "home field" without giving up the seed advantage, as they still would have the ability to pick up 4 rounds before the match even went to the "away" server.

I feel the duels between X and I showed why medium is such a boring speed: There are no opportunities for lightning quick attacks nor counter attacks, so you're reduced to simply exchanging blows that even my girlfriend could see coming in time and block relatively effectively. What ends up happening is who's patience will break down first, who will yawn/blink their eyes; Hasek's example of chess vs speed chess is a good one. I just personally don't feel that an FPS should be played as an RTS, which is what my personal metaphor of fastest vs medium: an FPS vs an RTS, one being based on reflex and one being based on slow turn based thinking. The same duel on fastest would have been much more entertaining to watch, in my opinion, but I really don't want to turn this into the "fastest vs medium" thread. I'm just illustrating that there are solid arguments for both sides, and it would be best to keep the community united in the same tournament; if we split the camps, both tournaments would be ridiculously small.

Also, in regards to people calling me a sore loser, you'll notice I'm not calling out Mr. X, nor am I saying "lol come to Pom West, I'll ****ing destroy you," I'm simply stating flaws as I feel made their way into the tournament. I feel Fort has done an excellent job with the tournament, and I am simply offering critiques for the next tournament to make it even better. It is my honest opinion that the winner of any tournament should be the one who is most skilled, and with the current setup, if a skilled player is forced to play all 7 rounds on a disadvantageous server, it dillutes that skill to a random dice roll of who gets their server. I'm simply stating that if a work-around could be found to acclimate both camps of fastest and medium to keep them in the same tournament, rather than spliting it, it would be desireable to do so. I really grow tired of all you haters who always have something negative to say every time I open my mouth, and to you, Mad Dawg, if you'll notice the "pages" you seem to call of "controversy" I've had, you'll notice most of the time I'm simply replying to those flaming me.

I agree that Hasek and Akmar were out of their element against me, and I'll also state that I was out of my element on medium against X. However, I did give Hasek duels on Medium later, and I'll gladly give Akmar duels on Medium speeds as well if he'd like, the same goes to you, Mad.

Thanks for the tournament, Fort.
 

Outlawed

Sergeant Knight
WB
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I have nothing against you Rhade, so there is no real hostility towards you on my side.
I was irritated to see X's victory made less of a big deal because of certain circumstances. You could have said that you were out of your element in the first place, I wouldn't have said anything =p

As for Fastest/Medium, I personally like both. I really don't mind which one I play at, but I tend to do better at Medium mainly because its slower and I can see attacks/react easily lol.

As for your idea, I actually like it quite a bit. However, if I may, a good addition to the 4-3 system would a randomization of seeds after every set of matches or 'match period'. This integrates nicely into the league idea. With numbers being switched between members so that the first seed in a group/division doesn't get to make the calls for all their matches.
 

Mr.X

Rhade said:
I feel the duels between X and I showed why medium is such a boring speed: There are no opportunities for lightning quick attacks nor counter attacks, so you're reduced to simply exchanging blows that even my girlfriend could see coming in time and block relatively effectively. What ends up happening is who's patience will break down first, who will yawn/blink their eyes; Hasek's example of chess vs speed chess is a good one. I just personally don't feel that an FPS should be played as an RTS, which is what my personal metaphor of fastest vs medium: an FPS vs an RTS, one being based on reflex and one being based on slow turn based thinking. The same duel on fastest would have been much more entertaining to watch, in my opinion, but I really don't want to turn this into the "fastest vs medium" thread. I'm just illustrating that there are solid arguments for both sides, and it would be best to keep the community united in the same tournament; if we split the camps, both tournaments would be ridiculously small.

I have to disagree, in our duel there were no chambers, which is and will always be a large part of dueling. I didn't chamber because I was too scared. You didn't because you didn't know the speed yet. I certainly think that, even between too really good players, medium can be exciting.


Rhade said:
Also, in regards to people calling me a sore loser, you'll notice I'm not calling out Mr. X, nor am I saying "lol come to Pom West, I'll ******** destroy you," I'm simply stating flaws as I feel made their way into the tournament. I agree that Hasek and Akmar were out of their element against me, and I'll also state that I was out of my element on medium against X. However, I did give Hasek duels on Medium later, and I'll gladly give Akmar duels on Medium speeds as well if he'd like, the same goes to you, Mad.

You're right here though. I apolagize for the times I posted and I sorta *****ed. To be quite honest, you're a very good player and I was jazzed about beating you. Because I that, I immediately took your posts as excuses, which they were not. So I'm sorry. I would advise everyone else not to flame Rhade. At least not about this :wink:
Also, I would like to duel you on fastest if you want, though I can garuntee that I won't be as focused as I was in our match because it won't be for the tourny.
 
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I like your idea Rhade, 4 and 3 but would the higher seed also pick the order in which the server's are played? Do you see this format used in a knock-out tournament, seasonal or ladder format?
 

Rhade

Master Knight
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fortinbras_martel said:
I like your idea Rhade, 4 and 3 but would the higher seed also pick the order in which the server's are played? Do you see this format used in a knock-out tournament, seasonal or ladder format?
I think the one with the higher seed would have their server played first, as, logically, that should give them an edge going to the "away" server, both round-wise and psychologically.

I think it could be adapted for any use -- As I said, there are some holes in it, but the basic framework should hold up.
 

Tigerclaw

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&S
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I think there are advantages to both a double league and a single league tourney, but if you're going to do a single league, Rhade's idea sounds like a very good one. But Faranox pretty much sums it up for me - Fort does an excellent job of managing these tourneys, and I intend to participate in and support any future tourneys that he organizes, regardless of format.
 

Kitten-mew!

Knight at Arms
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With any luck, after getting several school-related things out of the way, I'll try to host my own tournament.
 
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