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The epitome of the catastrophical "design" decisions - the lack of Court

Do you also want your court back?

  • Agree

    Votes: 78 95.1%
  • Disagree

    Votes: 4 4.9%

  • Total voters
    82

Currently viewing this thread:

vito397

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
I have made a post about banners. Others have made a post about rebellions. Countless others about the lacking battles, sieges, and so on.

But I have yet to come across constructive criticism about the lack of a royal Court. In Warband, setting up your court was the first thing you'd do when founding a Kingdom. It would give you something that being a vassal would not give, a real sense of mechanical and physical authority. In there you would have your minister, to whom you'd say your wishes, and it was even more so expanded in the Diplomacy mod (inclusion of this mod was the bare minimum for diplomacy expectations of BL for me, and to see it so undone really hurts). By installing it you'd get a Constable, a Chamberlain etc.. In that sense, you could go to your capital to discuss matters of finance, taxes, recruitment, strategy, alliances, marshallship, feasting, fief-conferring and war. There you would recieve nobles indicted for treason or ones crossing over because they have lost their fiefs. There would also be ladies whom you could court if you didnt have a wife already. It was most of all a tool of immersiveness, something to do other than war.

What do we have in Bannerlord? You are a "king". It doesnt matter where you stay, your siblings or children are scattered about. Finances are non-existent. Recruitment tasks are non-existent. The title of the royal marshall is non-existent, and so is the political struggle behind it. Fief votes are done in a menu. Votes on policy are done in a menu too, both using the "Influence" as a currency rather than something you actually do and project. You have no ministers, no titles you could appoint your companions to such as constables. You dont manage alliances and engage in any diplomacy whatsoever because they don't exist, and if they did you would do it in a menu. You recruit people yourself, and your vassals also manage garrisons and castles horribly. For courting ladies you pass artificial and overly mechanical checks, you don't court them. No poetry to learn, no tourneys to dedicate. You don't ever hold a feast and meet heads of clans and their families because the design director apparently doesn't find it useful. No estranged nobles reside in your court in search of a new liege lord, you instead find the clan head somewhere in the woods and buy his loyalty by giving him 4 very long javelins.

So, here is my suggestion, so some TW employee cannot say I didn't communicate what I want. 1) Slow down the pace of the war/peace declarations to make time for feasts, ruling and relation-building, 2) introduce the concept of the court as described above, preferrably using the Warband Diplomacy Mod as a guide, so we have time to actually enjoy the things in the game. The pace of time itself, as in 80 days a year, I don't find problematic. So what if years pass? This is actually good.

BL focused too much on the wrong things. These aren't surface issues. These things imply a deep conceptual misunderstanding of the success of the previous game by the design decision-makers. For it to be fixed there needs to be a fundamental fix in understanding of the game. A compromise can sadly not be done on such things, as it would not include anything of value of the either side of the arguement.
 

Rungsted93

Sergeant at Arms
WBWF&SVC
Completely agree, I honestly expected this would be one of many aspects Bannerlord had heavily improved on vs Warband.
 

NordicWill

Sergeant
Agreed. This is probably my biggest disappointment with BL that I thought TW would've evolve from WB. Being a lord or king in this game is so empty. Controlling a town or castle is limiting and boring.
 
Imagine if during the period before the feast one or more quests related to the search for:
1) orators, poets and bards who sing or make the nobles laugh at court.
2) cooks who cook tasty dishes for the nobles.
3) waiters
4) guards who protect these nobles inside

In summary: quests that allow you to enter the castle and attend even if you normally could not.
Quest whose purpose is to get you close enough to these lords to talk to them, try to kill them and ...
 
This goes hand in hand with not wanting to give the player too many things to control or impact.
You have no counselor because there's nothing to talk about or resolve. Sure there's - security and loyalty debuffs..... but you have to look at that ! on the map and walk out there and do it yourself, King, Emperor with 1/2 the map, no matter, you can't even tell one of you 20 adult children to just go see what the village wants and do it!

Oh we're getting too prosperous(population?) and running out of food, too bad we already built the orchards. There's no way with millions of money and thousands of men we could ever build another one or...dare I say...make more villages? We'll just starve our standing army of professional soldiers until it evens out. What about assigning raid parties just to steal food from enemy villages and caravans and bring it back where it's most needed? No, that impossible, obviously everyone needs to pile into a big blob and march back and forth buy up all our remaining food and then disbanding when it runs out.
That's my 5 star general always 1 step ahead!

I could dump in this outhouse all day.

I think it's important to say for any Devs that read this : it's not that we want just a superficial "court" we also want the underlying world building and player agency (meaning player making choices and effecting the world) that causes the court to be needed. We want to control and direct more things in the game as we rise in power.

Imagine if during the period before the feast
*Looks at you profile pic*
oh I see where this is going....
Quest whose purpose is to get you close enough to these lords to talk to them, try to kill them and ...
Yeah... it'd be a lot more fun then fighting looter next to them and shooting them in the face to try and kill them with friendly fire.... and nobody ever comment or cares.
 
The game without substantial modding is not worth turning on. If I had known this I would have never been in this EA and would have waited for conversion mods and a discounted price.
 

Calabanar

Sergeant
Let's get real here: the only way they are going to add courts is if they are simple to conceive and understand.

The Diplomacy mod sounds like a good enough foundation. Perhaps the roles of Chamberlain and the rest (forgot the terms used) could be positions in the clan. That way, the better a character is at, say, stewardship, the more efficient they are at the task you give them, as if they were on a mission. I'm sure there would be ways of exploiting the current perks and not creating new ones, even with this kind of new role.

Granted, idk about you, but I would much rather have less available information on my fiefs in the menus. Instead needing more... actual supervision: a role made for the governor who is currently not that useful... The mediocre stat bonuses aren't really worth letting a companion on the replacement bench. What happens when there is no governor? You get broad estimations instead of the 100% accurate stats in menus. This can cause problems, which would be the point: having a governor would actually matter, and since managing fiefs becomes a bigger investment, there is less reason to own all the freaking fiefs on the map which... makes no sense.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
@vito397 , + 1 to all this which would add to what we commented in your previous thread talking about the same thing. So as I commented here, in my opinion Bannerlord needs to somehow bring back from Diplomacy mod those three court agents (Chamberlain, Constable and Chancellor), maybe with something like this:

0DnEz.jpg

A council room
 

Xavyn

Recruit
I agree with this post whole heartedly and I hope TW takes notice. However, the only responses I have seen from TW when it comes to community suggestion were ones that said everything was either too complicated or not within the scope of their vision for this game. Its almost as if they want the game to just be this never ending battle of faceless, nameless numbers with RNG being the only thing to introduce a modicum of replay value (not including mods) and they are just fine with that. It seems many others get this feel from TW as well and I do not know why they refuse to address the issue... its just inexplicable.
 
@vito397 , + 1 to all this which would add to what we commented in your previous thread talking about the same thing. So as I commented here, in my opinion Bannerlord needs to somehow bring back from Diplomacy mod those three court agents (Chamberlain, Constable and Chancellor), maybe with something like this:

0DnEz.jpg

A council room
Not bad, but they look like inbred brothers having a meeting about who is going to marry which cousin. :smile: I take it it's from a mod.
I think the scene needs more of a throne room look (or at least one distinguished seat) and advisors that you can tell from each other. Also, you don't order someone with "please" in any time earlier than late 20th century, it has to be simple "do this".
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Not bad, but they look like inbred brothers having a meeting about who is going to marry which cousin. :smile: I take it it's from a mod.
I think the scene needs more of a throne room look (or at least one distinguished seat) and advisors that you can tell from each other. Also, you don't order someone with "please" in any time earlier than late 20th century, it has to be simple "do this".
giphy.gif

Vader please don't bug me :lol:, you know it's four elements thrown into a raw scene in less than two minutes. The dialogues are the original ones from Diplomacy.
It's a "conceptual simulation" :iamamoron:🎓 .
 
Haven't they said they aren't going to add feasts?
We know they have no interest in adding a diplomacy system. I really don't see this happening unless someone mods it in in a couple of years.
 
I have made a post about banners. Others have made a post about rebellions. Countless others about the lacking battles, sieges, and so on.

But I have yet to come across constructive criticism about the lack of a royal Court. In Warband, setting up your court was the first thing you'd do when founding a Kingdom. It would give you something that being a vassal would not give, a real sense of mechanical and physical authority. In there you would have your minister, to whom you'd say your wishes, and it was even more so expanded in the Diplomacy mod (inclusion of this mod was the bare minimum for diplomacy expectations of BL for me, and to see it so undone really hurts). By installing it you'd get a Constable, a Chamberlain etc.. In that sense, you could go to your capital to discuss matters of finance, taxes, recruitment, strategy, alliances, marshallship, feasting, fief-conferring and war. There you would recieve nobles indicted for treason or ones crossing over because they have lost their fiefs. There would also be ladies whom you could court if you didnt have a wife already. It was most of all a tool of immersiveness, something to do other than war.

What do we have in Bannerlord? You are a "king". It doesnt matter where you stay, your siblings or children are scattered about. Finances are non-existent. Recruitment tasks are non-existent. The title of the royal marshall is non-existent, and so is the political struggle behind it. Fief votes are done in a menu. Votes on policy are done in a menu too, both using the "Influence" as a currency rather than something you actually do and project. You have no ministers, no titles you could appoint your companions to such as constables. You dont manage alliances and engage in any diplomacy whatsoever because they don't exist, and if they did you would do it in a menu. You recruit people yourself, and your vassals also manage garrisons and castles horribly. For courting ladies you pass artificial and overly mechanical checks, you don't court them. No poetry to learn, no tourneys to dedicate. You don't ever hold a feast and meet heads of clans and their families because the design director apparently doesn't find it useful. No estranged nobles reside in your court in search of a new liege lord, you instead find the clan head somewhere in the woods and buy his loyalty by giving him 4 very long javelins.

So, here is my suggestion, so some TW employee cannot say I didn't communicate what I want. 1) Slow down the pace of the war/peace declarations to make time for feasts, ruling and relation-building, 2) introduce the concept of the court as described above, preferrably using the Warband Diplomacy Mod as a guide, so we have time to actually enjoy the things in the game. The pace of time itself, as in 80 days a year, I don't find problematic. So what if years pass? This is actually good.

BL focused too much on the wrong things. These aren't surface issues. These things imply a deep conceptual misunderstanding of the success of the previous game by the design decision-makers. For it to be fixed there needs to be a fundamental fix in understanding of the game. A compromise can sadly not be done on such things, as it would not include anything of value of the either side of the arguement.
With you on this 100% .. but i think we will be waiting until TW gets the game stable . then the Mod guys will come into play and give us what is needed. its a shame .
 
1) Slow down
Please, do not use this words together when making a suggestion for devs :iamamoron:
Jokes aside, why npc's don't already have titles I cannot understand, this should be the next step for devs, then work on improving the mechanics already existent in diplomacy, connect the dots to make it work. The game doesn't need more complexity or a lot more mechanics, it just need to create a belivable and immersive environment. What we have now is a repetitive unfunny unimersive npc behavior.
 
This goes hand in hand with not wanting to give the player too many things to control or impact.
You have no counselor because there's nothing to talk about or resolve. Sure there's - security and loyalty debuffs..... but you have to look at that ! on the map and walk out there and do it yourself, King, Emperor with 1/2 the map, no matter, you can't even tell one of you 20 adult children to just go see what the village wants and do it!

Oh we're getting too prosperous(population?) and running out of food, too bad we already built the orchards. There's no way with millions of money and thousands of men we could ever build another one or...dare I say...make more villages? We'll just starve our standing army of professional soldiers until it evens out. What about assigning raid parties just to steal food from enemy villages and caravans and bring it back where it's most needed? No, that impossible, obviously everyone needs to pile into a big blob and march back and forth buy up all our remaining food and then disbanding when it runs out.
That's my 5 star general always 1 step ahead!

I could dump in this outhouse all day.

I think it's important to say for any Devs that read this : it's not that we want just a superficial "court" we also want the underlying world building and player agency (meaning player making choices and effecting the world) that causes the court to be needed. We want to control and direct more things in the game as we rise in power.


*Looks at you profile pic*
oh I see where this is going....

Yeah... it'd be a lot more fun then fighting looter next to them and shooting them in the face to try and kill them with friendly fire.... and nobody ever comment or cares.
You are absolutely right, the development may be slow but the real problem of the game if 'their vision' which is far from what many of us wants.
 
Please, do not use this words together when making a suggestion for devs :iamamoron:
Jokes aside, why npc's don't already have titles I cannot understand, this should be the next step for devs, then work on improving the mechanics already existent in diplomacy, connect the dots to make it work. The game doesn't need more complexity or a lot more mechanics, it just need to create a belivable and immersive environment. What we have now is a repetitive unfunny unimersive npc behavior.
They've worked on titles already. They decided titles should only appear during dialogue with the character so that's that.
 

WhyAmIHere

Nah, to make something true mod quality I need coder black sorcery. The ball is in your court :wink::iamamoron:.
"coder black sorcery" = "knowing what to google" :razz:

my entire job relies on me being the guy that knows what to google in order to find a post from the 3 guys on stack overflow who actually know how Java works
 
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