The Defining Element of Medieval Warfare

[HighXplosive]

What I question here is the lance. The couched lance damage is very very powerful in this game. In reality, was the lance the determining factor in battle?

Of course, the knights were the true killers of the medieval army: training, equipment, motvation being prime reasons for this. However, was it the knights lance that won the battles or the mounted charge? The heavy armour? Their skill and valor?

Another perpective of the stimulus, should the couched lance damage be reduced in favour of increasing the Horse Charge damage?

Certainly, in my honest opinion, a heavy horse (such as the warhorse) galloping at full speed towards a peasant should not just damage them lightly, but indeed, kill them from the sheer weight and force (unless perhaps the peasant is wearing armor).

I specifically haven't put this in the Suggestion forum because I feel its up for some discussion before I suggest it. What I mean is, I don't know pie all about medieval warfare in terms of the knight, horses and lances but have my theories.

Discuss.

 

[Persen]

I really don't think the horses should be able to charge without some speed. I mean, if you are in the middle of a bunch of knights, they just run over you, even if they've got no speed at all.

 

[Manitas]

What I question here is the lance. The couched lance damage is very very powerful in this game. In reality, was the lance the determining factor in battle?

It's because the AI troops can't notice a lancer charging them yet.
Otherwise damage of the lance is countered by its inferior hit rate (you must ride away and accelerate before every attempt) so I think when the AI will be coded to counteract it, it will become one of the most useless weapons in the game.

 

[Lobos]

IF weapon durability is put in... I'm guessing lances would only last a few charges, break apart, and then you'd have to resort to using your backup weapons.

(just a thought on how to balance the powerful couched lance, though it HAS been posted before)

 

[Khalid ibn Walid]

In short, yes, the couched lance was as big as all that.

No, I don't favor increasing horse charge damage.

 

[Skyrage]

Well, all the different lances deal massive couch damage, the top end dealing bit more, but even the worst weapon that can be couched is still capable of making instant kills.

The biggest factor is of course the horse. More speed = more momentum = more force...it's as simple as that really.

As for the horses charge skill, that's how much damage they deal when you ram someone with the horse. Speed should really be (and is already) the only factor that determines how much damage you deal with a lance.

 

[malenn]

The question wasent how to make the lance worse in the game but how good it was in real life. or am i wrong?

The thing with a lance is this its a long pinted weapon that scewr the oponent in a charge.
Thera are lances that was more than that of curse but thay got used more like a trusting weapon like a spear so you dont charge the horse using this sort of lance that is more like a spear.
But as in all weapon areas there are other methods.
Some pics.

HEAVY LANCE:
There are essentially two types of lance, heavy and light. The heavy lance is from 10 to 12 feet long and 1.5 inches to 2 inches in diameter. The heavy lance is a "Shock" weapon. It's purpose is to unhorse a rider in single combat, such as in the "joust for peace"; or smash through the armor of opposing lines. For the first purpose it is seldom mounted with a sharp "Point of War", and never sharpened for the purpose of recreating a medieval joust.

AREA OF ENGAGEMENT:
The effective area of engagement with the heavy lance as a shock weapon is within a 30 degree angle of attack off the centerline of the horse on either side of the neck. That is between ten-thirty and one-thirty o'clock. The area directly in front of the horse is not counted as this would require the horse to run head on into the target. To strike beyond this angle at the charge would put unacceptable torque on the rider's grip and result in an ineffectual "Slap" with the point, and a probable disarm.

The area of engagement for the light lance is different. It can be used as a shock weapon like the heavy lance, couched in the charge under the arm of course. But since it is more readily handled, it can also be used overhand or underhand like a spear. The thrust at melee assumes that the rider is relatively motionless or riding in parallel or pursuit with another rider. The area of engagement in such a case then broadens to encompass the thrust delivered by the rider. This includes the area to the rider's left, or 9 O'clock, all the way around to the rider's rear, or Six O' clock. This last position is assumed as a repulse to an attempt at charge to rear. These positions are covered under Skills and Drills.

Medieval guilds were assigned the task of making special fluted and hollow "break away" lances for the later tournaments. The lance for war was a solid shaft, usually of ash, though cedar and poplar are also mentioned

From a emminent Reanactment Site
http://www.classicalfencing.com/mcweaponslance.shtml

The blunt end of this lance passed through 3/4 inch plywood
in a joust pass, narrowly missing the rider's arm.

Left To Right: Striped Lance with painted blunt tip - Broad spade spear head
"Viking" diamond lance head - 18th Century Spanish Lance head

 

[HighXplosive]

Malenn, your post was most informative. That is indeed the original question. I believe you pictures demonstrate precisely my thoughts. How then, would the lance be "nerfed" but remain realistic? Personally I agree with the weapon durability idea mentioned earlier by the other guy. I also think it should shatter shields. This means the blocker will not be dead, but will lose his defense equipment. Better than being dead of course.

 

[Olorin]

about increasing horse charge i toatlly agree, i have a heavy charger and 5 riding skill. i deal 10-12 damage at the most for runing down an enemy....i shoudl be able to kill or better, knock unconsious thta enemy (not with a saddle horse but definatively with courser-charger)

 

[Phoboshobo]

I also think it should shatter shields

Doesnt Kradus tell you this in the tavern? It doesnt happen in game as far as I can see.

 

[Valec SKylien]

I also think it should shatter shields

Doesnt Kradus tell you this in the tavern? It doesnt happen in game as far as I can see.

He says they are unblockable- but in the game you may block a lance as any blow.

 

[barbaros]

In a real war, not a single knight but hundreds of them was charging towards hundreds of infantry. So, I don't think they did have the chance of charging again and again in this crowd of people. After the initial charge, they generally pulled out their sword.
In current game, its not very crowded or chaotic and you can charge again and again. And the lance is never broken. Those are the source of imbalance in the game I guess.

 

[Mablung]

The lance was not reused, with the force from a horse charging with all that wait behind it, the lance broke (generally). If it didn't, it was still discarded, being too unwieldy in battle. There was a thing called a baffle, a block of wood place directly behind the head of the lance that made sure that the lance would not penetrate a body full and could be withdrawn for use again. Of course this would only work against lighter enemies.

 

[HighXplosive]

So the general conclusion is the lance should be a less durable weapon (like almost a one shot weapon in game terms), should not be used to repeatedly charge (I know for a fact that the true power of cavalry comes from the charge, but after that, they fought in the nitty gritty chaos and jam of battle like any unlucky sole to be caught in the fray). Therefore, it seems it would be a sensible idea to make shields smash, as stated in game by Kradus.

 

[Mablung]

No, I believe that would be over-powering the horseman and leaving the infantry vulnerable. It all depends on what angle the lance strikes, a slight variation and it could be deflected. Jousts consisted of trying to strike the opponent whilst deflecting his blow with your shield. The lance often broke when it struck the shield so as not to encumber the rider. If it remained intact sticking through the shield, the rider would be at a disadvantage and have to try and release the long lance while it is couched and whole.

Shields did not tend to "shatter" as such either. They could be beaten to shreads but this would require many consistent blows. One charge from a lance would not "shatter" a shield, it would -- at best -- punch a hole in it, and one that wouldn't be too large IMO. Fair enough that is does damage to the shield, to reflect the loss of integrity - it is weaker with a hole in.

 

[HighXplosive]

The perhaps there is a way to have the lance coded to be impaled into the shield, in such a fashion, that your character would discard it BECAUSE the shield becomes more a burden than benefit having a long stick stuck in it.

 

[Taka]

two things to keep in mind about the lance as far as how devistating the weapon was in combat.

First is the amount of momentum that you are hitting your oponet with. Lets assume a healthy sized male and his horse, both in full armor. You've got a weight of around 300 pounds on the human, likely around 600 or so for the horse. lets be really conservative and say you've got 600 pounds all told. Said horse gallops at around 45 miles per hour, or 66 feet per second. Momentum is equal to velocity times mass, so some quick conversion to metric and we come out with 20.1168 meters per second and 272.155422 kilograms, our momentum then, is 5440 kilogram meters / second. To get force, we have to find how long it takes this force to come to it's resting point. Assuming you hit the target full on and transfer all your force into it, you'll be stopping in about 1 second, so you get 5440 Newtons. This assumes your target somehow manages to stand perfeclty still you don't move him at all when hitting him, you'll lose a good deal of force when you smash him off his feet, so let's assume a quarter of that gets through in the form of the lance impact. We'll be looking at some 1440 newtons of energy, or the equivilent of resting a 300 pound weight on the end of that spear and letting gravity pull it down on you. Now, these numbers are hardly scientific, but it does put it into a bit of perspective as to how much power is behind a couched lance strike. Now, this kind of a hit will generaly rip through armor and sheilds (provided that they aren't deflected) and can easily kill a man in a single blow. The only thing that Mount and Blade fails at as far as realism for lances is that the lance generaly shattered (as was pointed out above) but other than that, they portray the lance as the deadly weapon that ti was on the battlefield.

Secondly, the purpous of calvary on a battlefield was to break open formations to allow your troops to pour inside the disorganized troops, and to cause panic among those being hit by these knights. Once the initial clash was completed, knights would generealy draw thier secondary weapon and procede to hack apart ground troops from horse back, or would gallop away for a second charge, as was the case with light lancer units. This is also a reason that pike formations were so lethal to horsemen, the only way to get around them was to jump over the initial killing end, or charge headlong and hope you wouldn't get skewered. eitherway, the momentum was broken (by slowly down to jump or by dead bodies in your way) and the pikemen could quickly dispatch the knights from tight formations.

 

[Sir Saladin]

Wow, I was just going to say that most shields of the time would break, and if they didn't something else would instead but I like the Newton's Law physics answer better even better even though it's a little over my head as a common Earl.

 

[Luthius]

I always believed that cavalry with lances charged repeatedly and tried not to become engaged in a melee as their true power was in the charge. With strong lances multiple charges would be possible! Cavalry are kind of invunerable in a charge so long as they are charging infantry with no pikes or bows. As soon as they start brawling they'll get cut down eventually.

Lance strength could be included in the game and be a factor in different lance types.

 

[Taka]

Apparently I did some wrong estimations above, your adverage knight in armor was looking at some 300 pounds alone, your adverage warhorse without armor is some 1500+ pounds, and can charge at around 35 miles per hour.