the Commercialization of mods

[Ilex]

Now I don't venture into the general boards too often these days, but once I heard the rumours I decided to check if there was a thread going. I found naught. Consequently I decided to make this thread to hear people's opinions on the possibility of Paradox/TW striking a deal with some of the modders to make profit out of user made mods for both parties. Now I don't have any solid proof (just a few quotes; to be presented later), so you can assume this is purely hypothetical.

So, opinions? What do you think (reasoned arguements please, if I wanted to see how many supported/were against I would've made a poll)? Do you approve/disapprove? And before anyone mentions it there has already been a similar case from before; namely 1066, which sparked a lot of controversy. A fact which further intrigues me on the subject of people's opinions.

隐藏: Things that sparked my interest

Paradox and (by extension) Armagan, recently approached me with an offer, to make my mod a premium mod, then split the revenues. After talking it over with my partner, we decided to accept - we still want to provide a version for free, but it wouldn't be nearly as developed.

Hello, I work for Paradox Interactive, the publisher behind Mount & Blade. We work closely with the developer TaleWorlds in how the future for the game will develop. One option we are considering is to publish a few of the best M&B mods, together with some extra content, as a downloadable expansion for $4.99 or $9.99, and split the revenues with the mod developer and TaleWorlds.

I asked TaleWorlds for which were the best M&B mods available, and the ******* mod came up. Is this something that would be of interest for for you? If so, would you be so kind and fill in the attached PowerPoint slide and send back to me? I will then run the process here internally at Paradox, and get back to you with a proposal. Regards, Tom.
------------------ Tom Söderlund Executive Producer Paradox Interactive

I hear there's already a thread on the german forum for this. If anyone's got a link I could add it here; *****

 

[Raz]

Mods aren't and shouldn't be about money. I think that charging people for mods would destroy the whole modding community, and would only introduce excessive competitiveness amongst modders. If modders want to make money, they should go work for a game company.

Edit: How would you tackle copyright issues? E.g., loads of mods are using my items. By that definition every contributer should get his or her share of the profit.

 

[Lord Rust]

Heh, now that's a daft idea

If Taleworlds want to keep making mini-expansion etc (fixing the original game, AI etc etc) i'll pay for that, but i'm not buying mods.

Fact of the matter is, something like this would probably end with a higher percentage of piracy for MnB.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Now I don't venture into the general boards too often these days, but once I heard the rumours I decided to check if there was a thread going. I found naught. Consequently I decided to make this thread to hear people's opinions on the possibility of Paradox/TW striking a deal with some of the modders to make profit out of user made mods for both parties. Now I don't have any solid proof (just a few quotes; to be presented later), so you can assume this is purely hypothetical.

So, opinions? What do you think (reasoned arguements thank you, if I wanted to see how many supported/were against I would've made a poll)? Do you approve/disapprove? And before anyone mentions it there has already been a similar case from before; namely 1066, which sparked a lot of controversy. A fact which further intrigues me on the subject of people's opinions.

隐藏: Things that sparked my interest

Paradox and (by extension) Armagan, recently approached me with an offer, to make my mod a premium mod, then split the revenues. After talking it over with my partner, we decided to accept - we still want to provide a version for free, but it wouldn't be nearly as developed.

Hello, I work for Paradox Interactive, the publisher behind Mount & Blade. We work closely with the developer TaleWorlds in how the future for the game will develop. One option we are considering is to publish a few of the best M&B mods, together with some extra content, as a downloadable expansion for $4.99 or $9.99, and split the revenues with the mod developer and TaleWorlds.

I asked TaleWorlds for which were the best M&B mods available, and some stupid generic mod came up. Is this something that would be of interest for for you? If so, would you be so kind and fill in the attached PowerPoint slide and send back to me? I will then run the process here internally at Paradox, and get back to you with a proposal. Regards, Tom.
------------------ Tom Söderlund Executive Producer Paradox Interactive

I hear there's already a thread on the german forum for this. If anyone's got a link I could add it here; *****

I won't be buying any pay-to-play mods (although Bioware did a good job of P2P in the form of Pirates of the Sword Coast) but I think of it this way; sometimes, companies need to sub-contract. This is a widely accepted form of working in many industries, so in a way, developers who produce stuff of a high quality may be "sub-contracted" to work for Paradox in this way -- it means less legality and no requirement for an actual contract fixed-rate work.

I only ever play vanilla M&B, I don't play mods. I won't play P2P mods, though I might consider free mods, but I can understand why some people might want to utilise P2P mods. I'm sure we'll hear all about it when the time is right.

 

[Lhorkan]

I'm definitely opposed against this course of action. Mods are made by the community, for the community. They are offered for free to the playerbase, in return for respect for the modders. Asking money for the mods, and even worse, sharing that money with the publisher (sharing it with Taleworlds is acceptable, but there shouldn't be any money made from mods in the first place), goes against this principle. I know that modmakers put a lot of time into their work, but that's their decision, so it's not an argument to ask for money.


The only case that makes it acceptable for mods to be charged for is if the mod makers buy the engine from the developers, and have it published seperately (so you do not need the original game to play; look at some Source games not made by Valve).

 

[miclee1]

No, just... no!

I would never charge people for mods. It would just take the fun out of... everything.
It would break the sense of community we have here at Taleworlds.

 

[Seff]

My opinion is that it will have serious impact on the modding community - instead of the goodwill we have now where everything can be borrowed from other modders with permission, I anticipate a more competitive attitude - people will be concerned with making money rather than only making the gaming experience better, which is a sad thing if it happens. One of the things that I see as a reason for the nature of M&B is exactly that there was very little competition in this particular genre at the time where M&B developed into what it is. Even the newer versions of M&B are markedly more aimed at adding graphics, which to me says that M&B got more competitive, as opposed to just standing out for those who appreciated the combat like it was in the old days, and it saddens me.

I also anticipate serious butthurt; Do the authors of modding guides also deserve a slice of the cake? They have undoubtedly been instrumental in the possibility of many mods even existing. What about the people who made tons of models that all major mods use? They've worked hard too.



EDIT: What everyone else said

 

[dobber10]

if you had to pay for a mod no one would play it

 

[FrisianDude]

Could actually be useful if some things present in mods are taken, and improved, for native. But, I think the only reward for that should be a mention in the contributors list. Modding should not be about money, ever.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

if you had to pay for a mod no one would play it

Sure they would, if the publisher had a good track record. Like Bioware's Premium mods for NWN1. They released several successful Pay-to-Play mods. Think of it has cheap, small expansions to the original game.

Besides, nobody's FORCING you to buy P2P mods, and there will undoubtedly still be many free mods available from the core fanbase.

 

[miclee1]

if you had to pay for a mod no one would play it

Sure they would, if the publisher had a good track record. Like Bioware's Premium mods for NWN1. They released several successful Pay-to-Play mods. Think of it has cheap, small expansions to the original game.

Besides, nobody's FORCING you to buy P2P mods, and there will undoubtedly still be many free mods available from the core fanbase.

It won't work like that.
Things will start to be VERY competitive. Making mods will be no fun, nobody will help eachother.

 

[Kurt Zibling]

When Morrowind came out, the devs released a series of free mods, and they were pretty classic.
However, when Oblivion came out, the weasels now charged for mods...LOLWUT! (as they say)

I stuck with MW, as Oblivion was buggy as hell anyhoo. They had the audacity to release Oblivion
with various 'non-openable' doors that would link with the pay-mods. What a rip off! Sadly it worked...
People wanted pretty (read: gay) elven armour for their horse so they went for it...

Bah! Ruthless marketing wins again!

 

[Barry_bon_Loyale]

I agree that entering money and finances into the equation skews everything.

When you do something you love and suddenly get paid to do it, your motivations switch from enjoyment to financial, and once that happens it's difficult to get simple enjoyment back.  In psychology it's called the "overjustification effect". 

Not to mention, making a "marketable" product doesn't necessarily make it better.  Mod makers would begin making decisions based on what sells best, not what's best for the mod. 

Of course we all know the modding community is one of the great things about Mount & Blade and Taleworlds.  Do we really want to trade in that integrity for money? 

 

[captain lust]

It's a horrible idea, I know but sadly, I've heard similar things that may confirm this (I too, won't mention any names). One of the great things about the community is everyone's willingness to share their work around and do things for their own and other people's enjoyment.

This, potential, commercialization could completely thwart that whole mentality. I hope, it doesn't come into practice and it would be a testament to the strength of character of the Mount & Blade modding community, if the plans were rejected.

Unfortunately, money talks and this sad, sad thing may come to pass.

Here's to hoping it doesn't.

P.S. I realise that I've, basically, said what everyone else has said.

 

[Kurt Zibling]

I recall back in the early days of CIV2 modding (which still has a cool mod community), a certain sprite
artist tried to charge for his modded units and GFX - He got laughed at till he gave the stuff for free.

Charging for content in the community is just not cricket. It erodes the good will of the assembly.

 

[Yoshiboy]

Bad bad bad. I do not approve. Modding always has be, and should remain a hobby. There are several issues with it becoming otherwise:

1. It will ruin the community spirit, competition between mods will grow and modding will stop becoming as fun.

2. Copywrite and Intellectual Property issues need to be covered and made perfectly clear to protect the mod author, legal issues are not something I want to ever deal with as a modder.

3. Many mods use content made by other authors and huge amounts of content is shared around the whole community. Much of this content is even made by people which do not frequent the forum any more. Mod authors will have issues of splitting profits between a team, or giving money toward people who have donated assets etc. This can only end in trouble.

4. Most mods are very amateur and selling this content is simply not appropriate.

But it seems most of you know this anyway. Modders, do not fall for this! Only paradox will gain anything from this kind of situation.

 

[Kurt Zibling]

Look at modded banners for instance - This aspect uses so much source material from other areas, it would open up a copyright nightmare.

 

[Hietala]

What everybody else said

 

[Soil]

While I agree with all thing already mentioned one has to mind the perspective of the mod makers. Some may be very young and need money for uni for example or maybe want to get started in the game bussiness. Getting an offer to get one's work published is, of course, a huge opportunity for them so I do suppose or even expect modders to accept the offer, whatever the community may think about it.

Just thought I'd add this here.

 

[Kurt Zibling]

I am completely opposed to this idea, and am prepared to deal with sell-outs as we dealt with Colt and Tegan.

Good sir, what was the deal with those guys - ?