The battle for Calradia. Check forums.
- 主题发起人 Arch3r
- 开始时间
正在查看此主题的用户
Elric_de_Melnibone
Knight at Arms
And don't forget armour specialisations, which would give you a certain bonus to the maximum armour rating for ONE type of armour.
But simply, the armor tiers are a little bit reductive.
there's no really functional light armor below 20 points.
As there are very little between 20 and 35.
And the rest is apparently to heavy to afford.
there's no really functional light armor below 20 points.
As there are very little between 20 and 35.
And the rest is apparently to heavy to afford.
I think it would be better if it was more freeform. I do not like the forced archer/infantry/cavalry restriction. The tier idea fits though and IMO can be implemented without forcing restrictions on people. Let me try and make a simple example.
So you got a class this is the origional basic class as set out by Arch3r (now defined as a Tier 2 with infantry/ranged/cav limitations).
Could take any equipment in any combination and was allowed 50 skill points. This would be one step up from militia who may or may not have equipment limitations due to lower rank.
Essentially this Tier 1 "Soldier" is the potential jack of all trades you could make him into anything. He is the base for all further troop classes.
Maybe this would be unlocked by a barracks (I cannot be bothered to look over the buildings you have specified Arch3r so if you have an equivalent assume I mean that, nor is it important what the building is to get the point across).
You start with Militia.
So a barracks unlocks you a Tier 2 soldier class base. I already explained how it can use and be anything.
Then when you build an armoury/fletchery/stables you unlocked the infantry/ranged/cavalry upgrades. Except now they are a little different, they along with whatever other upgrades we decide to add unlock new class types.
This would be:
Tier 2:Archer/Cavalry/Infantry
These guys are allowed for example 60 skill points. However limitations as described by your earlier Tiered examples of troops apply. eg. the infantry are not allowed ranged weapons or horses.
They may also get class specific bonuses eg. 2 points in powerstrike for infantry or <30(tier 3?) armour rating armour(provided you have the materials and other requisites yet to be determined).
Or maybe these bonuses will be conferred by further upgrades at the armoury as suggested by your armoury example from your post Arch3r, however I think it would be much simpler for everyone involved if rather than having small individual upgrades they were contained within more expensive and widely bearing upgrades. It would be much harder for people running the game to keep track/update and much more annoying for the clans having to continuously edit their troops/versions of the mod. It would be much easier to include them in larger upgrades.
Then maybe when you build a keep you get the tier 3 soldier. He has the same jack of all trades style but now 60 skill points. No penalties and no bonuses.
The keep also unlocks the tier 3:archer/cav/infantry upgrades, they would have to be bought from their respective buildings. They would also convey similar bonuses to the previous tiered specialised troops but maybe larger and be given maybe 70 skill points.
This system could very easily be expanded upon with keep -> castle castle -> citadel etc. upgrades. Allowing us to stretch the upgrade paths for troops ever further should we want to.
Also you could maybe even include hybrid classes for those that want some degree of specialisation but not fully.
Maybe if you have a keep, an armoury and a fletchery you can make the "skirmisher class" a 60 skill point tier 2 unit(as opposed to the tier 3 specialised units with 70 skill points the keep also unlocks) with some set of bonuses and advantages that fit the idea eg. +1powerstrike and +20 ranged weapon proficiency.
This would also be a good way to implement horse archers.
------
If you were worried everyone would be running around with tier 2 soldiers all turned into hybrids anyway you could make it so your only allowed 1 single tier 2/3 soldier class. Then you have to unlock more class slots through upgrades. If you want to get all 3 specialised troops (were having a max of 4 soldier types + officers right?) you must remove your tier 2 soldier class from your roster. Then of course if you went for a hybrid class or tier 3 whatever you would have to "overwrite" an old class as well.
Now I do not know if this would be a better system or not(they are both untested after all) but it would allow us much more freedom IMO. It would also reward specialisation rather than forcing it which is how I feel it should be.
Also any values or names or specifics I used are not important so do not argue over them it was just an example to get an idea across.
------
As for armour I think there should be a blacksmith building which uprades armour city wide for all classes produced there or kingdom wide if necessary. You should start with for example Tier 1 armour. Then you will be able to unlock Tier 2, 3 etc from there also(or maybe start at tier 3 and upgrade from there). Maybe a good way to set the tiers is Tier 1 as <10 2 as <20 and so on. However this does not apply equally for each class.
It would have to work in 1 of two ways I think. It would either specified in the class base (eg tier 2 infantry, tier 3 armour. tier 2 archer, tier 2 armour) or alternatively paid for with the skill points used in troop stat generation. eg (tier 2 archer) tier 3 armour 10 skill points or (tier 2 infantry) tier 3 armour 5 skill points.
Oh and there should maybe be mines on the world map which apply +5 +10 etc armour quality depending on the material.
------
Anyway I think I might have failed at "simple" this ended up quite long although it is not that complex there is just a lot of it.
Edit:
I like paint!
So you got a class this is the origional basic class as set out by Arch3r (now defined as a Tier 2 with infantry/ranged/cav limitations).
Could take any equipment in any combination and was allowed 50 skill points. This would be one step up from militia who may or may not have equipment limitations due to lower rank.
Essentially this Tier 1 "Soldier" is the potential jack of all trades you could make him into anything. He is the base for all further troop classes.
Maybe this would be unlocked by a barracks (I cannot be bothered to look over the buildings you have specified Arch3r so if you have an equivalent assume I mean that, nor is it important what the building is to get the point across).
You start with Militia.
So a barracks unlocks you a Tier 2 soldier class base. I already explained how it can use and be anything.
Then when you build an armoury/fletchery/stables you unlocked the infantry/ranged/cavalry upgrades. Except now they are a little different, they along with whatever other upgrades we decide to add unlock new class types.
This would be:
Tier 2:Archer/Cavalry/Infantry
These guys are allowed for example 60 skill points. However limitations as described by your earlier Tiered examples of troops apply. eg. the infantry are not allowed ranged weapons or horses.
They may also get class specific bonuses eg. 2 points in powerstrike for infantry or <30(tier 3?) armour rating armour(provided you have the materials and other requisites yet to be determined).
Or maybe these bonuses will be conferred by further upgrades at the armoury as suggested by your armoury example from your post Arch3r, however I think it would be much simpler for everyone involved if rather than having small individual upgrades they were contained within more expensive and widely bearing upgrades. It would be much harder for people running the game to keep track/update and much more annoying for the clans having to continuously edit their troops/versions of the mod. It would be much easier to include them in larger upgrades.
Then maybe when you build a keep you get the tier 3 soldier. He has the same jack of all trades style but now 60 skill points. No penalties and no bonuses.
The keep also unlocks the tier 3:archer/cav/infantry upgrades, they would have to be bought from their respective buildings. They would also convey similar bonuses to the previous tiered specialised troops but maybe larger and be given maybe 70 skill points.
This system could very easily be expanded upon with keep -> castle castle -> citadel etc. upgrades. Allowing us to stretch the upgrade paths for troops ever further should we want to.
Also you could maybe even include hybrid classes for those that want some degree of specialisation but not fully.
Maybe if you have a keep, an armoury and a fletchery you can make the "skirmisher class" a 60 skill point tier 2 unit(as opposed to the tier 3 specialised units with 70 skill points the keep also unlocks) with some set of bonuses and advantages that fit the idea eg. +1powerstrike and +20 ranged weapon proficiency.
This would also be a good way to implement horse archers.
------
If you were worried everyone would be running around with tier 2 soldiers all turned into hybrids anyway you could make it so your only allowed 1 single tier 2/3 soldier class. Then you have to unlock more class slots through upgrades. If you want to get all 3 specialised troops (were having a max of 4 soldier types + officers right?) you must remove your tier 2 soldier class from your roster. Then of course if you went for a hybrid class or tier 3 whatever you would have to "overwrite" an old class as well.
Now I do not know if this would be a better system or not(they are both untested after all) but it would allow us much more freedom IMO. It would also reward specialisation rather than forcing it which is how I feel it should be.
Also any values or names or specifics I used are not important so do not argue over them it was just an example to get an idea across.
------
As for armour I think there should be a blacksmith building which uprades armour city wide for all classes produced there or kingdom wide if necessary. You should start with for example Tier 1 armour. Then you will be able to unlock Tier 2, 3 etc from there also(or maybe start at tier 3 and upgrade from there). Maybe a good way to set the tiers is Tier 1 as <10 2 as <20 and so on. However this does not apply equally for each class.
It would have to work in 1 of two ways I think. It would either specified in the class base (eg tier 2 infantry, tier 3 armour. tier 2 archer, tier 2 armour) or alternatively paid for with the skill points used in troop stat generation. eg (tier 2 archer) tier 3 armour 10 skill points or (tier 2 infantry) tier 3 armour 5 skill points.
Oh and there should maybe be mines on the world map which apply +5 +10 etc armour quality depending on the material.
------
Anyway I think I might have failed at "simple" this ended up quite long although it is not that complex there is just a lot of it.
Edit:
I like paint!
The current system gives room for mercenaries, as mercenaries will be available before a village can train it's own troops. The barracks unlocks the militia class. Unless someone can give me a good argument why 20 armor isn't good for light (a.k.a. cloth) armor because it unbalances the game, this should stay. Remember that everyone has to stick to these rules and that armor is free in-game. Unlocking Tier-3 armor takes a while, and it should as you can have 50 armor protection for all your infantry for free.
Well, the way it was put, it seemed like it was the BEST armor a troop could get.
Okay, I get it now.
At tier 1, a unit gets cloth for free.
At tier 2, a unit gets leather for free.
At tier 3, a unit gets metal (mail, plate) for free.
I think that we should get an extra tier so that there are 4.
Tier 3 would be light meatal (mail) for free.
Tier 4 would get heavy metal (plate) for free.
At tier 1, a unit gets cloth for free.
At tier 2, a unit gets leather for free.
At tier 3, a unit gets metal (mail, plate) for free.
I think that we should get an extra tier so that there are 4.
Tier 3 would be light meatal (mail) for free.
Tier 4 would get heavy metal (plate) for free.
That's an option, but I was thinking as starting armour:HULKSMASH 说:
Tier-1 (militia) cloth for free. Can upgrade when you have an armory, upgrades to Tier-2 (leather)
Tier-2 Infantry (infantry) leather for free. Can upgrade to Tier-3 when you have a foundry. Could add an upgrade to Tier-4 with the Citadel.
Tier-2 Ranged (archers) cloth for free. Can upgrade to Tier-2 when you have a fletcher, can upgrade to Tier-3 with the Palace.
Tier-2 Mounted (cavalry) leather for free. Can upgrade to Tier-3 when you have a foundry. Could add an upgrade to Tier-4 with the Citadel.
So do i have to send you the BASIC, FREE, equipment or all the inventory?
We are deciding this weekend the classes and equipment :/ If I manage to understand the system XD
Arch3r 说:
-Your going to want mercenaries anyway because no clan will be big enough to work without them. And if a clan is then a different clan will hire mercs and then that first clan wont be big enough anymore.
-It makes no sense that a village could not train a militia after all in m&b native what do you spend half your time doing? Going round all the villages hiring them.
-20 armour is good for light, not for infantry though. Infantry should be getting ~30 protection at least. Besides while you might be able to get 50 protection for one single tier 3 class (not necessarily all your infantry like you described it here). Your system forces everyone to have light infantry except for their tier 3 class.
-Armour has always been free in game once you own it on the kingdom side. Don't freak out...all equipment is free. It has been paid for by the kingdom.
-Under my system you would need like tier 6 for 50+ protection armour. You could price them so they get more and more expensive so getting 30+ (tier 4) would be reaosnable and not to slow but higher than that much higher. This would actually make metal amrour accessible.
I wonder if you even read any of the stuff I posted considering how it has not even been commented on
I spent quite a while on that, I do not expect you to just pick it up and use it but an opinion would be nice.
edit: seems you changed your armour system already from earlier limitations. Either way I recommend you read past the point where I said you start with militia (actually paying attention to the bit where I said ignore names of buildings as they are irrelevant, so I do not really get your OMG the militia come from the barracks objection[we can just have a militia upgrade at the barracks and then a soldier upgrade for the barracks and my system has slipped right in]) as I think the system I described there has several advantages. Over what you have thought up right now. It also allows the kingdoms much more freedom and choice in their class development and offers the choice of specialisation rather than forcing it down their throats.
I mean right now 2 of the classes I designed are probably going to have to be re-drawn up because you totally changed the system after I gave them to you. If I do that then I will also have to re decide equipment and so on. This is just one advantage of the system I explained above. It actually allows you to use the class, epquipment and point allocation system you drew up when you told us all to go and make classes.
A system for drawing up classes you abolished before it has even been tested.
Wasn't 12 classes the limit?
To Plazek: I haven't had the time to read it yet, but I didn't change the system. Infantry was always meant to have the Tier 2 (meaning 35 protection) for free as standard. Which you can upgrade pretty quickly to Tier 3. Also this isn't M&B Native now is it? It makes no sense that you travel to villages and ask volunteers to join you, which they will. After that you get them all killed fighting bandits, except a view and they magically gain super armour and stats by clicking one button.
To Plazek: I haven't had the time to read it yet, but I didn't change the system. Infantry was always meant to have the Tier 2 (meaning 35 protection) for free as standard. Which you can upgrade pretty quickly to Tier 3. Also this isn't M&B Native now is it? It makes no sense that you travel to villages and ask volunteers to join you, which they will. After that you get them all killed fighting bandits, except a view and they magically gain super armour and stats by clicking one button.
It is neccesary for the armor, as having crossbowmen (cost no points in skills to use them properly, and only a little proficiency) with plate armour isn't something that should be possible in my opinion. Same for your 'Super soldiers', I know that you like to be the best at everything with your clan, but I will never allow plate armoured infantry with high athletics, pistols, board shields and fast and powerful two-handers as you designed them.Plazek 说:
Militia is supposed to be weaker with 30 points. I tested it and they were still pretty strong. Their weakness is that they don't have such fancy armor at the beginning as infantry, but they are just as good crossbowmen. They have the same weapon limitations as higher tier soldiers as well, which makes them pretty good. Also I have spent quite some time on that post as well, and you can't be bothered to look over it?
I still have to make those upgrades that allows you to specialize.
Basically from the way I interpret you post: You want the militia to be a jack-of-all-trades, which they already are with my system, but with less points. Also you want more points for the specialized troops, but I find 50 to be good and powerful already, considering that there will be upgrades to improve skills even further. Also keep in mind that hybrid classes are perfectly possible, only they have a small penalty, which is the way it should be. There shouldn't be on insta-win class. You can still create an archer class with good melee skills, at the cost of bad starting armor.Then maybe when you build a keep you get the tier 3 soldier. He has the same jack of all trades style but now 60 skill points. No penalties and no bonuses.
The keep also unlocks the tier 3:archer/cav/infantry upgrades, they would have to be bought from their respective buildings. They would also convey similar bonuses to the previous tiered specialised troops but maybe larger and be given maybe 70 skill points.
This system could very easily be expanded upon with keep -> castle castle -> citadel etc. upgrades. Allowing us to stretch the upgrade paths for troops ever further should we want to.
Also you could maybe even include hybrid classes for those that want some degree of specialisation but not fully.
Maybe if you have a keep, an armoury and a fletchery you can make the "skirmisher class" a 60 skill point tier 2 unit(as opposed to the tier 3 specialised units with 70 skill points the keep also unlocks) with some set of bonuses and advantages that fit the idea eg. +1powerstrike and +20 ranged weapon proficiency.
This would also be a good way to implement horse archers.
------
If you were worried everyone would be running around with tier 2 soldiers all turned into hybrids anyway you could make it so your only allowed 1 single tier 2/3 soldier class. Then you have to unlock more class slots through upgrades. If you want to get all 3 specialised troops (were having a max of 4 soldier types + officers right?) you must remove your tier 2 soldier class from your roster. Then of course if you went for a hybrid class or tier 3 whatever you would have to "overwrite" an old class as well.
Now I do not know if this would be a better system or not(they are both untested after all) but it would allow us much more freedom IMO. It would also reward specialisation rather than forcing it which is how I feel it should be.
Also any values or names or specifics I used are not important so do not argue over them it was just an example to get an idea across.
------
As for armour I think there should be a blacksmith building which uprades armour city wide for all classes produced there or kingdom wide if necessary. You should start with for example Tier 1 armour. Then you will be able to unlock Tier 2, 3 etc from there also(or maybe start at tier 3 and upgrade from there). Maybe a good way to set the tiers is Tier 1 as <10 2 as <20 and so on. However this does not apply equally for each class.
It would have to work in 1 of two ways I think. It would either specified in the class base (eg tier 2 infantry, tier 3 armour. tier 2 archer, tier 2 armour) or alternatively paid for with the skill points used in troop stat generation. eg (tier 2 archer) tier 3 armour 10 skill points or (tier 2 infantry) tier 3 armour 5 skill points.
Oh and there should maybe be mines on the world map which apply +5 +10 etc armour quality depending on the material.
------
Anyway I think I might have failed at "simple" this ended up quite long although it is not that complex there is just a lot of it.
Edit:
I like paint!
Well evidently you did not read my post very well. Nor my previous one about how I am not trying to make super soldiers as I expect everything to balance. Seriously Arch3r your starting to sound like a broken record. I am bored of your accusations that I am only objecting because I want a super powerful class. I am objecting because your class system was the first thing in this mod that sounds boring to me. I really could care less whether I get to have the best troops or not I designed troops I thought were interesting. I already explained how the class I designed while having many clear strengths also had many disadvantages, of course judging by your current display of comprehension (or perhaps lack of it) I am not surprised you are continueing on in this vein. 
Militia is the same. I said you start with it because I assume you would start with a building that gives you access to militia. It still has 30 points. I know exactly what the militia class is, I have read your post several times. I knew I should have put soldier in bold but I did not think it was necessary.
Notice how soldier =/= militia. Seriously you accuse me of not reading you stuff.
So lets move on to your next "lack of a point" correct you are yet to make the upgrades that allow you to specialise your classes. However as I pointed out in my post it would be...
This is why I said that I think it would be better if these advantages and restrictions were contained within a class upgrade. Not individual upgrades.
Anyway now you are on Steam and I sent you a message so we will deal with it there instead of sniping at each other on taleworlds
Provided you reply.
Militia is the same. I said you start with it because I assume you would start with a building that gives you access to militia. It still has 30 points. I know exactly what the militia class is, I have read your post several times. I knew I should have put soldier in bold but I did not think it was necessary.
Notice how soldier =/= militia. Seriously you accuse me of not reading you stuff.
So lets move on to your next "lack of a point" correct you are yet to make the upgrades that allow you to specialise your classes. However as I pointed out in my post it would be...
This is why I said that I think it would be better if these advantages and restrictions were contained within a class upgrade. Not individual upgrades.
Anyway now you are on Steam and I sent you a message so we will deal with it there instead of sniping at each other on taleworlds
Provided you reply.
We had a chat on steam and I am gonna post my idea in a clearer way
why do you guys make this so damn complicated? and start fighting about it?
