SP - General The Bannerlord Banner Poll

[DreamySky]

For the game play, I think banners of clans of the same faction should have same background color, but the sigils should have some color variety. When a clan change faction, the background color change but the sigil (shape and color) stay the same. It doesn't have to be too colorful like 3 colors on a single sigil, most of them should be single-colored, some are dual-colored. That lets us remember some clans' banners as "red bow", "blue bow", etc (instead of "bow with 2 arrows" and "bow with 1 arrow" if they have the same color).

Another idea is sigils of clans of the same culture may have the same color, which is helpful but a bit restricted.

 

[FBohler]

Spoiler

Well, if bannerlord is supposed to represent earlier medieval society than warband, then the designs are pretty historically accurate - if you look at flags and coats of arms of european kingdoms from 9-13th centuries, their banners are actually quite similar to bannerlord's - usually a simple, single-colored sigil on a plain, single-colored background or even simpler than that. Here's a few examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Portugal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_León
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Castile
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Normandy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Norway_(872–1397)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hungary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bulgarian_Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Poland_(1025–1385)
And banners from muslim countries of that time were often even more simplistic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayyubid_dynasty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimid_Caliphate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate
So if you want to blame someone for the new banner designs you'd have to blame early-mid medieval banner designers.

I personally think the design is quite fitting for the timeframe that bannerlord is meant to represent.

Keeping the design simple is definitely a good thing, both because of historic comparison and visual readability in game. The designs in Terco's composition in the OP are very nice, but somewhat complicated. It should be possible to find a compromise though, between that and the current unicolour design, by adding a simple pattern to the main faction colour for each clan.

+1

People are complaining about each and every feature in the game right now...

Yes, the lack of variation in banners is a bit underwhelming, but this is how the game tries to make the world consistent and streamlined.

 

[Benjamin Bones]

Your assertion, or should I say assumption, is inapplicable here my friend. As Mr. Strong put it, this concerns personal coat of arms that distinguish different families within a sovereign nation. Historically the devices, colors, and the very background design all signified one thing or another about a family.

Except that he actually is in the right as far I know. Let me show you some noble family banners from the Netherlands from around this period.

Van Amstel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Amstel_family

Egmond
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egmond_family

Van Arkel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_van_Arkel

The van Amstel banner, has multiple colors, so it is not unthinkable to have more complicated banners. Sometimes a noble family combined a banner with another family which resulted in more complex banners. Nevertheless, the vast majority only have two colors.

I do not mind that only two colors are used since I don't have a preference for Calradia. the simplicity is quite clear for the player in my opinion. However, I would like to see that modders and the player do have more options.

I'm sorry, but no. The examples you used are more varied than what is currently offered in Bannerlord. There's currently no way that a lord can have horizontal stripes (van Amstel), repeating chevrons (van Egmond), or crenellated stripes (van Arkel) in Bannerlord. Also, You've grabbed 3 instances of family arms from the Netherlands (I invite you to research French coat of arms, or Spanish... or other European nations). The examples you used are not only more varied than what we currently see in the game, but they're not a good representation of family heraldry throughout the entirety of Europe. But again, this thread is not about historical accuracy in a fantasy game, it's about what the player base would like in Bannerlord with respect to Banners.

 

[Benjamin Bones]

Spoiler

Well, if bannerlord is supposed to represent earlier medieval society than warband, then the designs are pretty historically accurate - if you look at flags and coats of arms of european kingdoms from 9-13th centuries, their banners are actually quite similar to bannerlord's - usually a simple, single-colored sigil on a plain, single-colored background or even simpler than that. Here's a few examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Portugal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_León
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Castile
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Normandy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Norway_(872–1397)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hungary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bulgarian_Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Poland_(1025–1385)
And banners from muslim countries of that time were often even more simplistic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayyubid_dynasty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimid_Caliphate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate
So if you want to blame someone for the new banner designs you'd have to blame early-mid medieval banner designers.

I personally think the design is quite fitting for the timeframe that bannerlord is meant to represent.

Keeping the design simple is definitely a good thing, both because of historic comparison and visual readability in game. The designs in Terco's composition in the OP are very nice, but somewhat complicated. It should be possible to find a compromise though, between that and the current unicolour design, by adding a simple pattern to the main faction colour for each clan.

+1

People are complaining about each and every feature in the game right now...

Of course people are complaining, different people with different views always complain about things, especially concerning a game that is being released after nearly a decade of development that contains glaringly underwhelming aspects. Like Bannerlord having less varied banners than Warband. As you say: nitpickers gonna pick.

Yes, the lack of variation in banners is a bit underwhelming, but this is how the game tries to make the world consistent and streamlined.

Definitely, I'm all for consistency but the current situation is rather ridiculous. The world can be streamlined and consistent without having underwhelming banners in Bannerlord that look indistinct. At this point any change would be better than what is currently offered.

 

[lcmiracle]

Well the development of heraldry was a gradual process, and we do know that heraldic devices became ridiculously unsuitable for identification on the field 'round late renaissance mainly due to it losing its practical usage. Meanwhile earlier compositions of the coat of arms had been comparably simpler and it's not unreasonable to assume that during the latter half of the 12th century AD the coat of arms would be even simpler, and less standardized in Europe. There had also been little evidence that personal coat of arms of any form were in use in western Europe around the times of the Norman invasion. Meanwhile the the earliest unaltered heraldic roll is the Derring Roll and it dates around the 1280s. So it shouldn't be argued from a historic perspective as the heraldic of Calradia can really be anything from non-existent to extremely codified.

I do however believe that it can be argued from an aesthetic standpoint that the 1. the clan shields are boring and 2. individual lords using the emblems of their respective clan rob them of some identifying flavor. A procedural coat-of-arms system where lords in Bannerlord has their unique personal heraldic charge(s) with the field maybe divided and tinctured according to their respective factions/clans would both serve to make identification of units on the field easier and give the lords a bit character. And I don't know if lords can jump ship in Bannerlord or not -- but if they did, these lords' coat of arms can be easily modified to fit the faction's main color, even though the charges aren't changed.

We can have a two palettes for dark palettes and light colors each. As the background/field tincture does not change for each clan, the only concern would be the tinctures of the charges. If the clan tincture is dark, the charge(s) uses the bright palette and vice-versa, seeing how division of the field is not a concern here. And even if there is, and if the colors of the two divides are contrast, the system do know how the field is divided and can contrast the charges on those two divides based on the colors of the field. Unless one needs to worry about counter-charging the system itself needn't be too complex.

 

[Faustus]

I'd personally be fine with warband's solution, wholly unique banners for every family. I'd be fine with terco's solution, since at that point you'd have a functional banner editor in the main game instead of some hacksaw mod solution. But the way it is right now... please oh please no.

Even the claim that it's 'less confusing for players' isn't true. As someone with poor eyesight even with glasses I can hardly tell these apart, especially when waving on the overwolrd map.

I really think that the warband way was the best. Maybe spend some time devising consistent motifs based on culture, like the aserai often having crescent moons, the vlandians having animal sideviews on fields, several of these per faction, and a group of palletes instead of just the one. This would make banners actually distinct, let the players do whatever they wish in a proper banner editor, while still keeping a noble family's culture noticeable. Like how Europe has a lot of tricolour flags while Asia has a lot of emblem on field flags in modern day real life, so you can sometimes kind of tell where a flag is from at a glance.

 

[Ruler of Calradia]

I just want some way to always be able to easily tell who belongs to what faction, and banners are great way to do that.
But rather than everyone in the faction having identical colors, maybe we could be inspired by heraldry. In real life, this was only done for Grand masters, but in the game this system could work for everyone.
So, everyone has their personal coat of arms (see banner of arms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banner_of_arms ). Every faction has their own coat of arms. As people become members of faction, they marshal (quarter) their arms with arms of the faction. Faction leader would combine his arms with more elaborate version of faction's coat of arms.

(in real life both of them were grand masters, i don't remember why arms of Teutonic order became more complicated over time. but for this game it would be great way to separate faction leaders from faction members)

Remember, coat of arms don't need to be complex. Huge amount of "heraldry" you find is terrible or does not even follow heraldic rules and traditions, there is enormous amount of false information about it too.
Coat of arms can be as simple as black cross on white shield. And you definetly don't have to combine your parents coat of arms together generation after generation. Flag of Austria is example of banner of arms still in use.


And heraldry would be fitting for time period. In real life it was born little later, roughly during first crusade, but people have always been drawing images on their shields or banners, heraldry is just formalized version of it.

 

[Benjamin Bones]

I just want some way to always be able to easily tell who belongs to what faction, and banners are great way to do that.
But rather than everyone in the faction having identical colors, maybe we could be inspired by heraldry. In real life, this was only done for Grand masters, but in the game this system could work for everyone.
So, everyone has their personal coat of arms (see banner of arms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banner_of_arms ). Every faction has their own coat of arms. As people become members of faction, they marshal (quarter) their arms with arms of the faction. Faction leader would combine his arms with more elaborate version of faction's coat of arms.

(in real life both of them were grand masters, i don't remember why arms of Teutonic order became more complicated over time. but for this game it would be great way to separate faction leaders from faction members)

Remember, coat of arms don't need to be complex. Huge amount of "heraldry" you find is terrible or does not even follow heraldic rules and traditions, there is enormous amount of false information about it too.
Coat of arms can be as simple as black cross on white shield. And you definetly don't have to combine your parents coat of arms together generation after generation. Flag of Austria is example of banner of arms still in use.


And heraldry would be fitting for time period. In real life it was born little later, roughly during first crusade, but people have always been drawing images on their shields or banners, heraldry is just formalized version of it.

Another fabulous alternative to the way banners in Bannerlord are generated. Well said my friend. There are so many different ways this can be done, yet TW is offering nothing more than different sigil shapes... I'm at a loss. I'm beginning to think that the reason for the banner design choice isn't to "keep the game streamlined and consistent," since there are different ways to achieve this without the boring, passionless, spiritless, sterile implementation currently instituted. Perhaps there is actually some sort of technical restraint because what we have now is uninspired, ugly and jejune to the point where I can't imagine a scenario where the developers would consider this the best way of doings banners in Bannerlord.

 

[KhergitLancer80]

Pretty much everyone agrees Terco's work is masterpiece. The idea of color palettes is just what the game needs.

 

[Azhael]

The current state of banners is horrible. Please, Warband had better banners and it wasn't hard to identify which faction any given lord belonged to because of the color of the text. Banners of the same faction sharing all the same colors is ridiculous.

 

[Ruler of Calradia]

The current state of banners is horrible. Please, Warband had better banners and it wasn't hard to identify which faction any given lord belonged to because of the color of the text. Banners of the same faction sharing all the same colors is ridiculous.

If color of the text is used to identify factions, it needs to have 2 colors, a bright or dark color and contrasting bright or dark outline. Not only does that allow for more diversity, it would allow players to make colors a lot darker if they so prefer, creating what many see as more authentic look.

 

[Honved]

I really like the idea of having a solid background color for each faction, for basic identification purposes.  The idea of a single sigil color, however, is appalling, and needs to change.  What appears to be a very limited number of sigil designs may be another factor which just adds to the problem.

 

[AmateurHetman]

yeah the banners are a huge step back from warband in my opinion. I was looking forward to an in-depth banner creator, but alas.

 

[Ruler of Calradia]

I really like the idea of having a solid background color for each faction, for basic identification purposes.  The idea of a single sigil color, however, is appalling, and needs to change.  What appears to be a very limited number of sigil designs may be another factor which just adds to the problem.

I have to disagree with that. Single color per faction leads to either multiple factions having similar colors and not being distinct, or colors are some really bad ones. In Warband it was terrible if faction color was black, as it was outlined with black and was often invisible. Minimum of 2 colors per faction on other hand already allows huge amount of different variations, ensuring that every faction can have unique color scheme. Either that or identification needs to be done some other way.
Single color per faction is worst thing that could be done.

 

[Jonat818]

It's weird how the recent devblogs shows an image of a unique banner pattern on a shield but this is absent from the Gamescon 2019 videos shown.

 

[RitoDurito]

Yeah I agree this needs to change, everyone having the same colour scheme is just so plain, especially when it's a game where you interact with hundreds of lords and build your story around them.

How else do we recognize the Prestigious House of Rolf 

Edit:Typo

 

[triptrap]

i 100% think we need some kind of banner editor. what's in so far is not very satisfying.
Having a split banner with the faction color and one of your coosing should be possible. I also think working with different hues and nuances, as in the tercoscetch, would be really great.

 

[Honved]

In my opinion, as long as the faction's main color is represented on the banner, the rest should be entirely open to change.  Whether it's two color or three color, or even more, that's fine with me. As long as the faction's color is prominent, there's at least some visual indication to identify the owner's allegiance without having to memorize every single banner in the game.  Giving every lord in the faction the same secondary color and everyone the same sigil falls into the "sad" category, considering how much time has been put into the development of this game.

Warband at least gave every lord a unique banner, although the smaller number of lords meant less banners needed.  It was still impossible to tell your recruited foreign Vaegir Marksmen from the other side's recruited foreign Vaegir Marksmen without enabling the hideous overhead flying circles, because there was NO visible difference, yet all of the AI troops could tell them apart at a glance.

 

[FBohler]

Warband at least gave every lord a unique banner, although the smaller number of lords meant less banners needed.  It was still impossible to tell your recruited foreign Vaegir Marksmen from the other side's recruited foreign Vaegir Marksmen without enabling the hideous overhead flying circles, because there was NO visible difference, yet all of the AI troops could tell them apart at a glance.

100% agreed.

 

[Faustus]

^that's precisely why I can't comprehend people complaining about the coloured armours.

Sure, you can recognise units well enough when it's just vaegirs v swadians, but by day 600 when all the lords have migrated sevenfold and every faction has units from every culture, not so much. This is further exacerbated by bannerlord having 3 factions with the same culture from the get go.

Anyway, coloured armour good, uniform banners bad.