The approach to MP has failed, and what could be done to revive it

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King_Bark

Regular
The current combat feels like your feet are stuck in mud as soon as you start to block or attack, and 1 shot kill throwing spears should be in the game because it feels awesome to spike somebody close up and kill them in 1 hit. If 1 shot throwing spears are bad, then so is everything else that allows a 1 hit kill.
Without turncap and combat speed, timing on attacks would be based on where the players feet are and the stats of their weapon, (just as it should be) and turning wouldn't be as much of an issue since the damage at the very beginning of a swing arc has been nerfed, it's no longer that useful to turn into every attack so that issue has been dealt with to the best of the devs ability since to fix it further would require new animations.
 

King_Bark

Regular
These are bad changes. No turncap removes any timing on melee attacks, since all attacks can be the same speed (as fast as you can turn essentially), which rewards defensive play - just block their attack then insta return swing, regardless of your positioning. It was like this before and was bad. You also need combat speed vs max speed, as if everyone is max speed then kiting and drifting while fighting is even worse than the current game.

Warband had both higher turn cap and slower combat speed, and the melee in that was far superior.

Don't see why javelins need a buff either.
A system where being good with wasd keys isn't rewarded isn't acceptable. As it is now you get locked in place while fighting and even if you're better on the keyboard you don't get rewarded for it
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
The current combat feels like your feet are stuck in mud as soon as you start to block or attack
I agree, but movement speed is actually pretty high relative to other players right now, combat wise or not. The issue is the difference between the 2 is very sudden, so it feels like you're being held back. The same mechanic was there in Warband, it was just better blended and was balanced so that melee "locked" you in better.
, and 1 shot kill throwing spears should be in the game because it feels awesome to spike somebody close up and kill them in 1 hit. If 1 shot throwing spears are bad, then so is everything else that allows a 1 hit kill.
Most one hit kills without a headshot or other skill component are bad yes.

Without turncap and combat speed, timing on attacks would be based on where the players feet are and the stats of their weapon, (just as it should be) and turning wouldn't be as much of an issue since the damage at the very beginning of a swing arc has been nerfed, it's no longer that useful to turn into every attack so that issue has been dealt with to the best of the devs ability since to fix it further would require new animations.
Without turncap weapon stats become meaningless (except readying speed), and early damage has not been nerfed anywhere near enough to prevent insta turning being a thing (nor should it be). It's just bad, we played the game with this for a year and it sucked all of the skill out of melee.

A system where being good with wasd keys isn't rewarded isn't acceptable. As it is now you get locked in place while fighting and even if you're better on the keyboard you don't get rewarded for it
Footwork being a good and necessary thing to reward is precisely why both turncap, shorter animation swings, and better tuned movement speed (rather than just faster, faster which everyone asks for) are needed. If you remove turncap and increase movement speed, footwork becomes irrelevant. How do we know this? Because we played the game 18 months ago and it sucked.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
[...]

Footwork being a good and necessary thing to reward is precisely why both turncap, shorter animation swings, and better tuned movement speed (rather than just faster, faster which everyone asks for) are needed. If you remove turncap and increase movement speed, footwork becomes irrelevant. How do we know this? Because we played the game 18 months ago and it sucked.

giphy.gif

THIS!
 

King_Bark

Regular
I agree, but movement speed is actually pretty high relative to other players right now, combat wise or not. The issue is the difference between the 2 is very sudden, so it feels like you're being held back. The same mechanic was there in Warband, it was just better blended and was balanced so that melee "locked" you in better.

Most one hit kills without a headshot or other skill component are bad yes.


Without turncap weapon stats become meaningless (except readying speed), and early damage has not been nerfed anywhere near enough to prevent insta turning being a thing (nor should it be). It's just bad, we played the game with this for a year and it sucked all of the skill out of melee.


Footwork being a good and necessary thing to reward is precisely why both turncap, shorter animation swings, and better tuned movement speed (rather than just faster, faster which everyone asks for) are needed. If you remove turncap and increase movement speed, footwork becomes irrelevant. How do we know this? Because we played the game 18 months ago and it sucked.
Footwork is irrelevant already because as soon as you start blocking or attacking you're locked in range until both you and your opponent decide to back up simultaneously. The turncap means that if someone is strafing that you can't correct the aim of an overhead or a stab to make it land once the animation starts, which means you can't look away to conceal it, and means you can only land an overhead or a stab while looking directly at your opponent, which makes it easy to block. Idk, game feels like you're standing in mud playing paddy cake when it should feel like kung fu or capoeira. The game was better two patches ago.
 

King_Bark

Regular
I agree, but movement speed is actually pretty high relative to other players right now, combat wise or not. The issue is the difference between the 2 is very sudden, so it feels like you're being held back. The same mechanic was there in Warband, it was just better blended and was balanced so that melee "locked" you in better.

Most one hit kills without a headshot or other skill component are bad yes.


Without turncap weapon stats become meaningless (except readying speed), and early damage has not been nerfed anywhere near enough to prevent insta turning being a thing (nor should it be). It's just bad, we played the game with this for a year and it sucked all of the skill out of melee.


Footwork being a good and necessary thing to reward is precisely why both turncap, shorter animation swings, and better tuned movement speed (rather than just faster, faster which everyone asks for) are needed. If you remove turncap and increase movement speed, footwork becomes irrelevant. How do we know this? Because we played the game 18 months ago and it sucked.
It sucks worse than it did 18 months ago because every single change has been about stopping noobs from getting stunted on by limiting what you can do. You can't actually aim the lance while couching, you can't do crazy feints or spins, you can't play two handed, you can't do well with javelins. Every nerf just pushes you into playing cav or archer so that you don't have to deal with the crappy melee combat.
 

King_Bark

Regular
I agree, but movement speed is actually pretty high relative to other players right now, combat wise or not. The issue is the difference between the 2 is very sudden, so it feels like you're being held back. The same mechanic was there in Warband, it was just better blended and was balanced so that melee "locked" you in better.

Most one hit kills without a headshot or other skill component are bad yes.


Without turncap weapon stats become meaningless (except readying speed), and early damage has not been nerfed anywhere near enough to prevent insta turning being a thing (nor should it be). It's just bad, we played the game with this for a year and it sucked all of the skill out of melee.


Footwork being a good and necessary thing to reward is precisely why both turncap, shorter animation swings, and better tuned movement speed (rather than just faster, faster which everyone asks for) are needed. If you remove turncap and increase movement speed, footwork becomes irrelevant. How do we know this? Because we played the game 18 months ago and it sucked.
I remember what the movement felt like in warband. In this game someone can run right up to and stand less than a foot away while spamming attacks, and you can't get away because blocking makes you slower. You literally cannot do footwork or moving in and out in this game unless both players agree to it.
 

King_Bark

Regular
Footwork is irrelevant already because as soon as you start blocking or attacking you're locked in range until both you and your opponent decide to back up simultaneously. The turncap means that if someone is strafing that you can't correct the aim of an overhead or a stab to make it land once the animation starts, which means you can't look away to conceal it, and means you can only land an overhead or a stab while looking directly at your opponent, which makes it easy to block. Idk, game feels like you're standing in mud playing paddy cake when it should feel like kung fu or capoeira. The game was better two patches ago.
Turning and swinging to hit at the beginning of an arc will result in almost no damage, especially if your opponent is doing what a comp player should and standing 1 inch away from you while spamming as fast as possible.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
Stop multiposting ya *****

- You can easily follow someone strafing, the turncap is barely restrictive. You can do a full 360 almost. The fact that you can easily follow someone's footwork, is why footwork is irrelevant! You can't get around people!

- The changes haven't been about stopping noobs getting beat on, they've been trying to improve the game - they just have gone about 5% of the way needed sadly.

- You couldn't "get away" from people attacking in Warband either, and it's far easier to do so in BL.

- It just isn't the case that without turncap early hits fluff consistently. Even if they did, no turncap still removes footwork as stated above.
 

King_Bark

Regular
Stop multiposting ya *****

- You can easily follow someone strafing, the turncap is barely restrictive. You can do a full 360 almost. The fact that you can easily follow someone's footwork, is why footwork is irrelevant! You can't get around people!

- The changes haven't been about stopping noobs getting beat on, they've been trying to improve the game - they just have gone about 5% of the way needed sadly.

- You couldn't "get away" from people attacking in Warband either, and it's far easier to do so in BL.

- It just isn't the case that without turncap early hits fluff consistently. Even if they did, no turncap still removes footwork as stated above.
Its just not true. It's way harder to 360 spin and hit someone when your character model lags behind the cursor, it's so much harder that it usually misses now and hardly anyone bothers to try it. The fact that footwork is too slow and easy to follow is what makes it irrelevant, because you can't gain an advantage with it. You totally could get away from someone in warband, and you used to in this game. It is the case that if you turn and hit to early during an attack, it will hit for very reduced damage and may even glance and fail to stun. Check the changelogs and test it yourself. I seriously doubt you play with any sort of proficiency if you think this. It feels ****ing awful, even compared to a few patches ago. Go on duel right now and you'll see what I mean, people standing less than a foot away from each other trading attacks and blocks one for one because you can't move on and out and feinting doesn't work half the time, and doesn't work at all up close unless you count hilt spam. Half of the time a cancelation on an attack doesn't even work, so pretty much none of the new players do it. It's a dumbed down, worse, noobier version of the previous game still.
 
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Fyren338

Recruit
In regards to the revival of the multiplayer I think the most obvious update that should have arrived years ago is customizable equipment loadouts and presets. It's embarrassing this wasn't included from the sequel to warband but it's so obviously easy to implement I can't understand why it isn't already here.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
Its just not true. It's way harder to 360 spin and hit someone when your character model lags behind the cursor, it's so much harder that it usually misses now and hardly anyone bothers to try it. The fact that footwork is too slow and easy to follow is what makes it irrelevant, because you can't gain an advantage with it. You totally could get away from someone in warband, and you used to in this game. It is the case that if you turn and hit to early during an attack, it will hit for very reduced damage and may even glance and fail to stun. Check the changelogs and test it yourself. I seriously doubt you play with any sort of proficiency if you think this. It feels ****ing awful, even compared to a few patches ago. Go on duel right now and you'll see what I mean, people standing less than a foot away from each other trading attacks and blocks one for one because you can't move on and out and feinting doesn't work half the time, and doesn't work at all up close unless you count hilt spam. Half of the time a cancelation on an attack doesn't even work, so pretty much none of the new players do it. It's a dumbed down, worse, noobier version of the previous game still.
I encourage you to try doing a 360 while attacking in Warband vs BL, you will see the latter is significantly freer and easier. I have no idea why you think it somehow stops you hitting people. Footwork is not particularly slow, in fact you can chase and get right up next to someone while blocking. Early damage drop off is not a significant factor in turning into your hits, exception is some axes.

I've played this game for 100s of hours throughout beta until now, and I have 7k hours in Warband. I've played competitively in both. Your description of both games is just off.
 

Gibby Jr

Marquis
Its just not true. It's way harder to 360 spin and hit someone when your character model lags behind the cursor, it's so much harder that it usually misses now and hardly anyone bothers to try it. The fact that footwork is too slow and easy to follow is what makes it irrelevant, because you can't gain an advantage with it. You totally could get away from someone in warband, and you used to in this game. It is the case that if you turn and hit to early during an attack, it will hit for very reduced damage and may even glance and fail to stun. Check the changelogs and test it yourself. I seriously doubt you play with any sort of proficiency if you think this. It feels ****ing awful, even compared to a few patches ago. Go on duel right now and you'll see what I mean, people standing less than a foot away from each other trading attacks and blocks one for one because you can't move on and out and feinting doesn't work half the time, and doesn't work at all up close unless you count hilt spam. Half of the time a cancelation on an attack doesn't even work, so pretty much none of the new players do it. It's a dumbed down, worse, noobier version of the previous game still.
No turncap would make movement irrelevant. In Warband, part of the reason why you could dodge attacks, or force them to glance, was because of the more restrictive turncap (and the tighter swing arcs).
I have included a helpful demonstrative video for you:

I agree with you that Bannerlord's combat is simpler than Warband's, particularly when it comes to things like attack angles and movement, but the freer turncap is one of the things contributing to that problem.

In Warband the situation was a little unique, as while holding an attack or block you could only turn relatively slowly but when changing input, ie. holding an attack and pressing block, you would almost instantly turn in the direction you moved your mouse. This meant that while you couldn't spin around as fast as you could move your mouse while holding an attack, you could instantly turn beyond the turncap to block incoming attacks.
 

King_Bark

Regular
No turncap would make movement irrelevant. In Warband, part of the reason why you could dodge attacks, or force them to glance, was because of the more restrictive turncap (and the tighter swing arcs).
I have included a helpful demonstrative video for you:

I agree with you that Bannerlord's combat is simpler than Warband's, particularly when it comes to things like attack angles and movement, but the freer turncap is one of the things contributing to that problem.

In Warband the situation was a little unique, as while holding an attack or block you could only turn relatively slowly but when changing input, ie. holding an attack and pressing block, you would almost instantly turn in the direction you moved your mouse. This meant that while you couldn't spin around as fast as you could move your mouse while holding an attack, you could instantly turn beyond the turncap to block incoming attacks.
My problem with it is the way that it was implemented feels bad because there's three turning speeds, one for executing an attack, one for horlding block or attack and the normal one. It definitely feels like it's been set up so that once the turncap kicks in in the middle of a swing that your aim can't be corrected if the other player moves, in particular with overhead swings and stabs. It used to be one of the best ways to conceal it and land a hit to look like your going to miss and correct it mid swing, and it felt pretty fun to do. Warband didn't feel like it had a turncap because it never felt limiting or like it caused me to miss. My problem with this game is that many of the nerfs or changes are too limiting and force you to play a certain way.
 
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