Thank you for the feedback

[JuJu70]

formations work most of the time for me but what i find puzzling is that the default shield wall is rather loose

Shieldwall wasn't packed, how would people swing their weapons otherwise  (Cannae, anyone?)

 

[Sarkiss]

formations work most of the time for me but what i find puzzling is that the default shield wall is rather loose

Shieldwall wasn't packed, how would people swing their weapons otherwise  (Cannae, anyone?)

true, it wasnt a hoplite phalanx, but is too loose as is, imho. sorry, what about Cannae?

 

[Faenwulf]

Yeah, the standard Shieldwall is much too loose. It must be clsoe enough so that the shields can overlap on each side. Otherwise the whole formation looses its function since projectiles, long spears and even men can just get through the gaps.
Personally I just gave my infantry division the order to stand closer one ore two times (not sure anymore) and made them memorize the placement (F2 -> F7 I believe). Since then I've had a tight packed Shieldwall every battle and enemy groups twice and nearly three times the size (120-140 vs. 240-300) have been ground to pieces by my Tier 3/4 troops with only small losses of about 20 or so.

 

[JuJu70]

what about Cannae?

Hmm, how did Romans got slaughtered? They ended up being packed, so noone could defend properly

Regardless, packing the formation will only be useful if your front row uses spears. That may have been the case, or not. But we can't tell row 1 to pack tight, and row 2 not to. In general, a soldier needs ~3 feet of space around him to properly use any swing weapon. Either that, or everyone needs to have a seax to thrust (which is of course how it was fought), but that would make people scream that their elite troops only have knives 

 

[SomeHairyGuy]

Would you be reasonably able to code units to switch weapons when in that formation, like with the NPC lancer fix that comes with P.B.O.D. osp (or whatever it was called)?

Obviously, if it requires exactly the same code, then you'll run into the commercial barrier again...

EDIT: Also, don't the 'stand closer'/'spread out' options work for units in formation?

 

[JuJu70]

Would you be reasonably able to code units to switch weapons when in that formation, like with the NPC lancer fix that comes with P.B.O.D. osp (or whatever it was called)?

Obviously, if it requires exactly the same code, then you'll run into the commercial barrier again...

EDIT: Also, don't the 'stand closer'/'spread out' options work for units in formation?

All the formation commands are in, troops do switch weapons, and stand closer/spread out are in. We had a long discussion about the shieldwall not looking like a shieldwall () in the past and decided to go with apparently more historically plausible spacing.

 

[Sarkiss]

what about Cannae?

Hmm, how did Romans got slaughtered? They ended up being packed, so noone could defend properly

Regardless, packing the formation will only be useful if your front row uses spears. That may have been the case, or not. But we can't tell row 1 to pack tight, and row 2 not to. In general, a soldier needs ~3 feet of space around him to properly use any swing weapon. Either that, or everyone needs to have a seax to thrust (which is of course how it was fought), but that would make people scream that their elite troops only have knives 

we are not talking about Cannae type cattle like packing orchestrated by the enemy and im not saying thats how tight the default formation shoud be. what we're discussing is a formation troops form on their own accord. this should be just tight enough to swing a sword or seax but not too packed to render soldiers within the formation virtually immobile or too loose so the fomation loses its cohesion (which is currently the case, imho).

talking of seax, shouldnt the loger version be capable of blocking? as it is, no seaxs, regardless of the length and weight, can be used to block.

cheers

 

[JuJu70]

a formation troops form on their own accord. this should be just tight enough to swing a sword or seax

seax is a thrust weapon, it wasn't used for swinging. But anyways, initial setup is about the spacing for safe (RL) swinging (3 feet or so). If you want an overlapping shieldwall, feel free to do it 

 

[Sarkiss]

a formation troops form on their own accord. this should be just tight enough to swing a sword or seax

seax is a thrust weapon, it wasn't used for swinging.

hm, interesting and makes the kind of loose formation we have as default even more questionable... as seax seemed to have been more common than a sword or an axe? and i wander if slashing animation for seax could/should be diabled altogether?

 

[Faenwulf]

Not all seaxes were made for thrusting. Especially the Anglo-Saxon broken back seax which had a heavy blade was probably made for slashing, too. It's close to a cleaver or a machete.

 

[JuJu70]

Not all seaxes were made for thrusting. Especially the Anglo-Saxon broken back seax which had a heavy blade was probably made for slashing, too. It's close to a cleaver or a machete.

True but it's use in shieldwall was mostly to stick it into the neck or other unprotected place. Like I said, actual shieldwall wasn't a phalanx, so there was a room for maneuver. In hand-to hand combat there is not much room, so you can't go swinging with a sword, that's why seax was so common. But MB is a game, and we can't do alot to change how the underlying combat mechanics work (for example in MB charge always wins against formation).

 

[Faenwulf]

(for example in MB charge always wins against formation).

Really? I always found a slightly tight Shieldwall to be nearly invincible. I managed to destroy enemy armies with 450 vs 140 while only loosing about 50 troops with that.

And yes, an actual Shieldwall has some room to move. Not enough to swing a sword, but enough for a short handed axe or a seax. Rule of thumb is that the radius of a round shield should be the distance from your finger knuckles to your elbow. That way, when you overlap with your neighbour their is still enough room to move slightly, swing short weapons or maneuver your shield.
Still, most deaths in a shield wall were probably made by the second and third rank, using long shafted dane axes and spears. In the front row axes were probably used to hack shields to splinters or pull them down (thats why they were "bearded", to hook onto the upper rim of an enemies shield) while a seax is good for thrusting into tight spaces when there is an opportunity.

 

[JuJu70]

Really? I always found a slightly tight Shieldwall to be nearly invincible. I managed to destroy enemy armies with 450 vs 140 while only loosing about 50 troops with that.

Bonuses and all, you know...

 

[Faenwulf]

So you did change some stuff to make formations viable? Now I'm interested in what exactly you changed.. 

 

[JuJu70]

So you did change some stuff to make formations viable? Now I'm interested in what exactly you changed.. 

I didn't, you can check the original formations osp by moto

 

[arteofwar]

I know this is a longshot but is there anyway to split norway up into factions so that you can help or fight against harald fairhair in his conquest of norway?

 

[CeltiberoCaesar]

I know this is a longshot but is there anyway to split norway up into factions so that you can help or fight against harald fairhair in his conquest of norway?

Hi artefwar,
As in native there are pretenders that want to take the crown, find him and you will get a divided kingdom 

 

[arteofwar]

I know this is a longshot but is there anyway to split norway up into factions so that you can help or fight against harald fairhair in his conquest of norway?

Hi artefwar,
As in native there are pretenders that want to take the crown, find him and you will get a divided kingdom 

Cool, I never noticed that, thanks for telling me. I guess with so many places to explore I should not be too surpised that there are still some surprises left.

 

[Crèvecoeur]

Hi! I don't know if I am at the right place to make a suggestion, but it would be a great idea to include better horses in the game. My horse gets killed every battle and is weak and there used to have armored horses in the traditionnal native M&B Warband. I don't know if you planned to include such things?

 

[Adorno]

We've tried to make the horses realistic to the era.
They had no armour and were used for skirmishes, not trampling down people.
So they're pretty weak compared to native horses. Use the horse tactically rather than as a medieval tank.