I'm not sure if Taleworlds could make AI hold shield without a weapon, or make it use weapon selectively, thus NOT using it while in Testudo, and not breaking formstion, just ignoring the enemy who is trying to break it.
As Terco said, currently the AI has difficulty executing even the most basic tasks, such as charging while maintaining formation, using spears, using a glaive 2h without a shield, archers with a glaive dont fire arrows, attacking a specific enemy unit, when cornered a formation is broken and you can never again form another formation than that cluster they formed while they were cornered and so on.
Well the thing is mechanically its just a better shield wall, as the devs have explained that in shield wall formation the unit moves slower than a turtle. Testudo would make shieldwall obsolete, unless of course its a unlockable formation as a perk for the strategy tree. Idk maybe have like split where you can choose to either unlock testudo formation or cantabrian circle, or maybe you auto unlock a formation depending on the culture you pick/inherit.
Testudos weren't used for fighting back at all, it was a purely defensive tactic to protect the troops against missiles- if an enemy had come close, they would have changed the 'formation' to a regular fighting one. Holding a large shield directly over your head doesn't put you in a good position to fight, even if you didn't have comrades tightly packed around you. The men on the flanks would be holding their shield at their side whilst walking forwards, and so they too would be unable to fight. Additionally, every soldier is trying to minimise the amount of space between the shields, leaving no practical room to use weapons.
This once again puts to question when this would be used other than sieges. The way M&B arrow fire works(or historical even) is that volleys were aimed at men, not arched in the skies as seen in hollywood movies. In which case once again, mechanically speaking in shieldwall formation the units can indeed fight while you suggest the testudo formation which cannot fight. Especially with shield hitboxes in which round shields can protect all the way down to your toes, the only viable option to use this slow turtle formation is when you get outflanked and pinned by two significant groups of archers.
I voted yes to see this in game, however for it to be practical many changes to AI tactics would have to occur, which taleworlds have already confirmed that in pitch battles the AI leading lords will only use
1 infantry unit
1 archer unit
1-2 cavalry units
1 cav archer unit
There were in fact "rain of arrows", shot first to the sky, so they fall down upon enemy units from above. The most famous of all being the battle of Agincourt, where english longbows showered the french with arrows.
Some very early and experimental longbows were so bulky that archers had to draw them using their feet, whilist sitting on the ground, and the only direction they could shoot was upwards.
There are even arab writings of how their most skillfull archers could already fire the 3rd arrow, before their 1st arrow even hit the target.
But since we all know that anything other than very basic mechanics are not to be expected from TW dev team, then i basicaly agree.
But this does not change the fact that i would love to see this and many other formations in Bannerlord
Now the effect of "rain of arrows" could be debated, especially in terms for agincourt .
As for Bannerlord formations... well I just revisited some gamescom gameplay just for fun, and after all the shock and whatnot from seeing it the first time around, I just can't see testudo's being even remotely viable. Now this mechanic which they have gone with in bannerlord is something I just despise, so in order for the formation to even WORK, then this has to go.
I am referring to how the AI in a formation BREAK IT to attack nearby enemies.
Skip to 6:45
This is just...what. The point of a formation is to hold together, whatever it may be, ESPECIALLY in shieldwall formation. Seeing this made me realize how silly this entire thread is, and not because of what its suggesting, but rather that it may be suggesting something too much... too logical. I am just beyond words and will just vent here.
Mods in warband have a much better system than shown in bannerlord, systems where you can actually attack enemy formations while in formation. The formations just seem like a step down, especially when it seems that the tactical AI for armies only know how to form shieldwall and thats it.
In another gameplay demo, Idek anymore.
Skip to 14:50 to around the second wave of the Imperial side
Now Ik he mentioned that a lot of the units are only archers/crossbowmen, but I saw a lot of inf too, and the Empire AI were simply overwhelmed by the cavalry alone(around 70 of them I think). Now this is a bit between the strength of cav and stupidity of infantry, but he didnt mobilize his infantry until a minute later and yet the cavalry alone were able to continuously pierce the formation as shown throughout the video. The rest of the battle is just a sweep, with the AI deciding to charge with causes separation, something that should never be a possibility against a faction that priorities the use of horses. Essentially, there is 0 formation to counter cavalry, and if there is then the AI don't utilize this.
Let us go ahead and compare those two engagements to a predecessor.
I believe VC was worked and developed by the brytenwalda boys, but in any case its just a better formation system. Especially the way this guy role plays as the commander in the frontlines, the battles feel really drawn out, and more tense and rewarding. This is personal but I love the feeling of BOTH sides holding their formations, seeing troops stay disciplined standing side by side shoulder to shoulder with the enemy only feet away as opposed to full on charging and breaking formation without given the order as seen in the first video. Bannerlord just feels like a brawl with friendly troops hacking and slashing the back of the heads of their owns troops and clumps or clump of soldiers hacking and slashing.
Because the charge order is rarely to never given in this game due to the system of formation vs formation, the player Or AI can pull back temporarily allowing for this slight respite or regrouping of reinforcements without the enemy just full on charging their lines.
Long post but I wonder if I am the only one feeling a bit disappointed, how they didnt take these brilliant ideas and fleshed them out in bannerlord. VC battles(personally) are superior than vanilla warband battles, but it was still crude and as you might've seen there're some very weird things going on like how the men would always shift around.
Seeing this reworked and improved, or implementing things that many others said earlier would have been a dream. Having faction/culture dependent or unlockable formations that interact in different ways as opposed to the inevitable brawl on the field would have been so much more rewarding and make battles more tactical, because as it stands I don't see the point of using any other formation other than shieldwall for inf and maybe loose for archers. Skein is kinda pointless, in total war you would get bonuses for using it like speed or charge bonus. In bannerlord it just reduces the width of the line in a charge that will breach ANY formation regardless how deep as shown throughout gameplay demos.
Ik its a lot of cavalry but all it takes is one horse to breach a line 4-5 ranks deep because the devs make the AI use swords on an upcoming cav charge.
Everything you wrote are my worst fears for this game, which i can delay for a but just repeating to myself "it's just a Beta, full release will be better".
But it takes just a glance on Captain mode when you spectate an AI, and witness the horrific decicion making along with instant 180 degree laser snapping, just feels..... dissapointing.
But this thread does not limit the question in poll to Native Bannerlord alone, mods are what will keep this game alive, and i await them eagerly !
Everything you wrote are my worst fears for this game, which i can delay for a but just repeating to myself "it's just a Beta, full release will be better".
But it takes just a glance on Captain mode when you spectate an AI, and witness the horrific decicion making along with instant 180 degree laser snapping, just feels..... dissapointing.
But this thread does not limit the question in poll to Native Bannerlord alone, mods are what will keep this game alive, and i await them eagerly !
If that is the case then I have no doubt that the brilliant mind who will take on a Roman republic mod willadd in testudo, and maybe others. Greek phalanx anybody?
Idk I just find it disappointing that Native bannerlord wont be able to hold up against mods, though Ik it dosent need mods to stand on its own.
fedeita said:
before the "rain of fire" command I wish to see the volley of fire implemented were all archers release the arrow at the same time (same for javelins)
This should theoretically be a must, but if I cant command my troops to use spears in battle then expect the implementation in mods like PBoD in warband which has this command.
It seems things are moving towards some kind of testudo now, it was even better than this, very straight lines and a couple of overhead shields, but they just wouldn`t stand still for a photo
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