TaleWorlds News: New News Necessary for the OT Neophytes

[kurczak]

You were taught the clergy is divine or closer to God in your Sunday school? They never went over the "not one is righteous, not one" bit? There are **** priests and **** Sunday school, but come on, man

Again, I'm not saying there aren't priests doing bad things or being bad people, but I am saying it's not because the Catholic doctrine tells them they are better than laypeople. Because it does not.

Fairly interesting rundown, but what then do the clergy and the Pope base their strong power on if not divine selection, which would sound like they are more special than the average person? How did the Pope and this power structure get so powerful and wealthy if it's a humbling doctrine?

Ironically the actual Catholic take is that it's because the Church consists of sinful mortals and not divine beings that it is no immune to pride, greed or lust.

It is a structure, structure based around knowledge and knowledge is power (*tips fedora*), so yeah there are power relations in the Church or any other religious organization. It literally doesn't matter what the content is, there will be a power element and therefore there will always be *some* abuse of the power. There are ******* Jain monks and every other new age guru who charges 100 bucks to show women some yoga 101 poses and tell them they should love themselves is literally a rapist.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the organization should not make efforts to minimize them. The cover-ups are the opposite of that and heads should roll, for all I care, even literally. But that doesn't justify the "bad thing happened within the Church, ergo the Church is inherently ebil" takes.

 

[eddiemccandless]

You were taught the clergy is divine or closer to God in your Sunday school? They never went over the "not one is righteous, not one" bit? There are **** priests and **** Sunday school, but come on, man

I was taught that the priest knew better than anyone else because he had the wisdom of God, that the bishop was an extremely important person and that people who were divorced were impure and unworthy of receiving mass. Admittedly I don't think I had a particularly good priest, but this kind of stuff is hardly uncommon in Italy and I don't see why it would be better elsewhere. Besides, as I said previously it is very obvious that not all men are equal in the Catholic hierarchy if you just look at the clothes and jewels of people who are higher up in it. There are some monastic orders that actually preach what you are saying (like the Francescani) but that's about it.

 

[Draco Wrath]

Orthodox ftw.

 

[Adorno]

The church is a stiff hierarchy that gives authority to people who should have none. It's an undemocratic relic (pun intended).
Anyway the report is being released.

French Church abuse: 216,000 children were victims of clergy - inquiry

The Church asks for forgiveness as an inquiry says it treated victims with "cruel indifference".

www.bbc.com

Some 216,000 children have been victims of abuse by members of the Catholic clergy in France since 1950

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

The church is a stiff hierarchy that gives authority to people who should have none. It's an undemocratic relic (pun intended).

Name one formally democratic, unhierarchical institution outside the state.

 

[Adorno]

My union.
E.g. cardinals are elected for life (what I mean by "stiff").

 

[Mad Vader]

Name one formally democratic, unhierarchical institution outside the state.

How is that pertinent? It's like claiming all non-state organizations are undemocratic and/or authoritarian (i.e. hierarchical).
Also, most institutions are hierarchical, but the level of delegation of power can be vastly different, making them very different organizations - from centralized and authoritarian (like the CC) to flexible grassroots volunteer organizations (like various local humanitarians and Adorno's union of polyamorous medics).

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

The point I was making is that saying "the Catholic Church is undemocratic and hierarchical" is probably the weakest possible criticism you could make of it.

 

[Calradianın bilgesi]

If the clergy doesn't claim that they are better people, on what merits a priest gets promoted? Isn't being a virtuous person or piety or stuff like that relevant to the evaluation?

 

[Adorno]

Have you noticed how many women are at the top - or even just generally - of the church hierarchy?
I wrote "stiff hierarchy" thinking I didn't have to elaborate on how misogynistic and homophobic (both undemocratic features) the church is, because everyone knows it.
Compared to most other institutions in democratic countries it's so conservatively authoritarian it practically teaches its members how not to set up an organisation in a free country. Maybe the military and some clandestine mumbo jumbo sects (freemasons etc.) can be compared.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear.

 

[Vermillion_Hawk]

If the clergy doesn't claim that they are better people, on what merits a priest gets promoted? Isn't being a virtuous person or piety or stuff like that relevant to the evaluation?

Priests are expected to be virtuous but this does not translate to priests claiming spiritual/moral supremacy by virtue of their position alone. Those are two entirely different things.

 

[Calradianın bilgesi]

I am not asking whether priests are expected to be virtuous, everyone is expected to be virtuous. I am asking whether priests are chosen in terms of piety or "closeness to god" when they are promoted to archbishop and stuff.

 

[eddiemccandless]

Priests are promoted the same way everyone else is, through politics and connections.

 

[kurczak]

When A appoints B to a posiition, does that mean that A thinks B is an essentially better person than others? Or does A simply think B would do a better job in that particular position? While the priest is expected to maintain a certain level of personal behavior and lead by example, it is only a small part of job. A priest (at least your standard diocesan priest) has all kinds of duties that mostly require people skills - preaching, hearing confessions, proselytizing, conflict resolution. Often they also work as part time teachers or choir masters. They take care of the physical property of the parish. Sure, you can drone through it on autopilot (cue in "10 pasternosters and 20 hailmarys, my child" scene from every other movie), but you can say that about almost all jobs. Does it mean that all jobs are bull****?

In an ideal scenario, a bishop should take all this into account before consecrating someone. It's not a promotion or a badge for the highest piety score in the parish Your personal piety can be through the roof, but you may be wholly unsuitable for priestly duties due to massive autism. In that case, joining a contemplative order sounds like the vastly superior choice.

The reality is, that the Catholic church is globally and chronically understaffed, so you know, beggars =/= choosers and more and more priests are just weirdos. I don't mean the pedos or other major moral failings, just that they don't have the people skills etc.

As for the specific phrase "close(r) to God". I have never heard say by anyone in the know, not even when I was actually practicing and into it and my megaCatholic mother had priests and nuns over for lunch every Sunday. Maybe about the Saints (i.e. dead people), or Mary specifically. Or as a euphemism for people who are about to die. At best, it sounds like some Pentecostal cringe tbh At worst, straight up heresy. At any rate, the doctrine is crystal clear - all men are sinners, all men are men, no man is divine (other than Christ, obviously), only God saves and only God knows who will be saved (and unlike with some other things, choose not to reveal the info).

Priests are, "of course" given respect by the believers. I know everything is framed as muh oppression and social constructs these days, but imagine, if you will, that you actually believe in God and that he sent representatives to perform rituals that make you close to God (hehe) and to clarify confusions about what ought to be done and thought. Would you not treat them with respect. I'm old enough to remember when teachers (especially in grade schools) were given similar respect by the general community, especially parents of school-age children. ****, I'm old enough to remember the Covid-19 pandemic, when half the population was kneeling and kissing the ring of the disease experts like there was not tomorrow.

 

[eddiemccandless]

****, I'm old enough to remember the Covid-19 pandemic, when half the population was kneeling and kissing the ring of the disease experts like there was not tomorrow.

Man **** that, I am old enough to remember things BEFORE covid, when people used to go to the doctors and follow medical advice instead of arguing endlessly over it. Now I am just kind of waiting for people to start kicking pilots out of airplane cockpits, they clearly are hacks who don't really know what they are doing.

 

[Adorno]

There was a time before Covid? It's all a blur.

 

[Mad Vader]

****, I'm old enough to remember the Covid-19 pandemic, when half the population was kneeling and kissing the ring of the disease experts like there was not tomorrow.

It's better to be wrong than to listen to people who are right, **** yeah!

 

[Adorno]

Brazil, paedophilia, Nazis...

Nazi haul discovered by Brazil police at home of suspected child abuser

Uniforms, flags and documents are found in a police search in the Brazilian city of Rio de Janeiro.

www.bbc.com

"He's a smart guy and articulate, but he's a Holocaust denier, he's homophobic, he's a paedophile and he says he hunts homosexuals," Mr Armond told Reuters news agency. "I'm no doctor, but he seems to me an insane psychopath."

 

[Calradianın bilgesi]

When A appoints B to a posiition, does that mean that A thinks B is an essentially better person than others? Or does A simply think B would do a better job in that particular position? While the priest is expected to maintain a certain level of personal behavior and lead by example, it is only a small part of job. A priest (at least your standard diocesan priest) has all kinds of duties that mostly require people skills - preaching, hearing confessions, proselytizing, conflict resolution. Often they also work as part time teachers or choir masters. They take care of the physical property of the parish. Sure, you can drone through it on autopilot (cue in "10 pasternosters and 20 hailmarys, my child" scene from every other movie), but you can say that about almost all jobs. Does it mean that all jobs are bull****?

In an ideal scenario, a bishop should take all this into account before consecrating someone. It's not a promotion or a badge for the highest piety score in the parish Your personal piety can be through the roof, but you may be wholly unsuitable for priestly duties due to massive autism. In that case, joining a contemplative order sounds like the vastly superior choice.

The reality is, that the Catholic church is globally and chronically understaffed, so you know, beggars =/= choosers and more and more priests are just weirdos. I don't mean the pedos or other major moral failings, just that they don't have the people skills etc.

As for the specific phrase "close(r) to God". I have never heard say by anyone in the know, not even when I was actually practicing and into it and my megaCatholic mother had priests and nuns over for lunch every Sunday. Maybe about the Saints (i.e. dead people), or Mary specifically. Or as a euphemism for people who are about to die. At best, it sounds like some Pentecostal cringe tbh At worst, straight up heresy. At any rate, the doctrine is crystal clear - all men are sinners, all men are men, no man is divine (other than Christ, obviously), only God saves and only God knows who will be saved (and unlike with some other things, choose not to reveal the info).

Priests are, "of course" given respect by the believers. I know everything is framed as muh oppression and social constructs these days, but imagine, if you will, that you actually believe in God and that he sent representatives to perform rituals that make you close to God (hehe) and to clarify confusions about what ought to be done and thought. Would you not treat them with respect. I'm old enough to remember when teachers (especially in grade schools) were given similar respect by the general community, especially parents of school-age children. ****, I'm old enough to remember the Covid-19 pandemic, when half the population was kneeling and kissing the ring of the disease experts like there was not tomorrow.

thanks this is all very insightful. I am also travelling a lot and seeing all those churches nowadays and it's nice to learn about this stuff.

a few days ago I saw Mont St Michel, and I wondered who gets to serve in this type of cool buildings and how do they get selected. there must be some competition there

 

[BenKenobi]

With a great deal of luck, Czech parliamentary elections ended up with a clear victory of wide centrist "pro-EU liberal democracy" front comprised of two blocs - a centre-right and a centre-left, together totalling 54 percent of seats in the parliament. Previously victorious populists have no chance of forming a parliamentary majority now, even if they cooperate with the extremists, unless the centrist blocks dissolve and parties involved negotiate for themselves. Which, at the very least, was declared outright impossible by the involved parties, both before and after the elections.

While we may see some constitutional gymnastics by the president that will keep the winners away from the executive for a while, it is an important victory that helps to safeguard Czechia against the trajectory that some of its V4 neighbours have taken.