TaleWorlds News: New News Necessary for the OT Neophytes

[BenKenobi]

My problem isn't that the idea of universal rights are applied inconsistently, but the fact that they are applied at all in the realm of geopolitics. It is only the west that elevates abstract moral concepts like human rights and democracy to geopolitics. Sure you will get stuff on Russian or Chinese state media about how badly black people are treated in America for example, but it never goes beyond shallowly dunking on them, and to make nationalist boomers feel better about their pensions getting slashed.

Ever since the abolition of the slave trade, the west has used flavour-of-the-month moral values as a cover for humiliating, punishing, or even outright destroying different countries. Even governments as innocuous and compliant as Barbados or Jamaica, where my family are from, routinely get this treatment in the press and from western politicians who visit them, and it drives me mental seeing something as patronising, divorced from reality and transparently chauvinistic as the "Freedom Index" get used to unilaterally determine whether a country should be subjected to western political pressure or not.

Because it is the west where individual fundamental rights replaced nationalism or Christianity as a leading religion. You cannot divorce fundamental rights from geopolitics as it would mean either resigning to do what's right or admitting that only western people have fundamental rights.

The basic quasireligious dogma that men are born equal and enjoy unalienable universal rights cannot be reconciled with existence of polities where fundamental rights do not exist at all or even have noticeable lower standard of protection. You cannot accept moral subjectivism while subscribing to the western notion of fundamental rights things because this would mean sacrificing the universality idea. They have their own ways is a very weak claim to justify violations of fundamental rights, especially when infringing on free elections and free press means that it is hard to accept or even ascertain what their ways actually are.

Is the west seeing non-liberal / authoritarian regimes as uncivilised? Probably. But if the notion of being civilised revolves around being a liberal democracy, it is pretty hard not to.

 

[NPC99]

Half of the point of this kind of interaction is to get the politicians to move faster. The current political culture is one of petty backroom deals that drag on for months while politicians have to scrape support out of as many people as they can, double check their political donors for what they want, only for it not to work a lot of the time anyway. If a politician knows that they at the very least have to pretend to represent their community on an ongoing basis, the political culture changes, and you'll get representatives who, in consultation with their electorates, are willing to move faster to the voting stage because that's what their electorate wants. You will get faster legislation, not slower.

I prefer good legislation to fast knee-jerk legislation. The devil is in the detail when it comes to framing legislation. Even elected representatives are incapable of becoming experts on the detail of every piece of legislation they are required to vote on. In the UK, "backroom" committees are routinely appointed to consider proposed legislation in detail. Getting everyone on the same page would either dumb-down the process or unrealistically expect everyone to be experts in everything.

The basic quasireligious dogma that men are born equal and enjoy unalienable universal rights

That's already been extended to women as well. Animals, insects, plants and bacteria are waiting for it to be extended to them too.

 

[Adorno]

So what, you don't live there, and nothing your policymakers can do besides war will change that. If Russians are fine with living in a country with a hypocritical regime (most people are), leave them to it. All this moral language about "criticising" or "denouncing" countries you can only know via the media, and will probably never even set foot in, via your own contingent moral standards, strikes me as bizzare evangelizing behaviour.

Countries are more and more connected, both by international institutions (UN etc.) and treaties, as well as trade.
Not to mention foreign companies, like media, operating in many countries.
Often the criticism is related to these obligations, like human rights, free press etc.
And remember it goes both ways. Russia for example has an army of hackers, chatbots etc. constantly trying to sway political views in the west. They're not as passive as you claim, by just making stories about how "badly black people are treated in America for example, but it never goes beyond shallowly dunking on them". Or remember Belarus flying in immigrants and sending them over the border to the EU (Poland).
There's a constant exchange of attempts to influence other countries. And, typically, the more autocratic it is the covertly it's done.

The EU complains when Russia suppresses freedom of the press, and Russia spreads stories (social media e.g.) about the EU being morally rotten. They're both trying to sway moral opinions.

 

[Sundeki]

I prefer good legislation to fast knee-jerk legislation. The devil is in the detail when it comes to framing legislation. Even elected representatives are incapable of becoming experts on the detail of every piece of legislation they are required to vote on. In the UK, "backroom" committees are routinely appointed to consider proposed legislation in detail.

It's the same people doing the same thing. Nobody said anything about knee-jerk legislation (although this happens now anyway). Just less of a political process slowed down by petty backroom deals, inflexible party affiliations (parties routinely disallow their members to "cross the floor"), and unaccountable politicians preferring input from special interest groups rather than the voters that put them there. And I wasn't talking about parliamentary committees either. I am not talking about a radical restructuring of the parliament itself, merely the relation between the politicians and the voters who put them there.

Getting everyone on the same page would either dumb-down the process or unrealistically expect everyone to be experts in everything.

Nobody is ever capable of getting everyone on the same page, not within modern politics anyway. These are the same voters voting for the same politicians, just more accountability, and less presumably corruption.

 

[Mad Vader]

So what, you don't live there, and nothing your policymakers can do besides war will change that.

There is a lot they can do both diplomatically and with other soft power means, like propaganda through the media, subversion through NGOs... and by simply existing and showing there is a better life available where people have more freedoms - and not the least more disposable income to buy things. Which is why, if given the means, a lot of Russians and other dictatored peoples would emigrate to Western countries.
It's not like they would choose a corrupt authoritarian regime over a democratic one because it's culturally closer to them, but because they are not given the choice.

 

[Do not look here]

Doesn't help that last time they were given that choice their Happy Meal was 'Surprise, it's regime again'.

As an old Polish saying goes, the problem isn't that we're deep in ass-end, the problem is that we've started to settle down there. It's easy to start seeing certain things as normal, like all politicians being corrupt bastards. Voting for change quickly becomes a non-option if said change kept being promised and never delivered.

 

[Mad Vader]

Denmark would join EU common defence policy and Borgen is getting a sequel.
Citizens celebrate by spontaneously deporting failed asylum seekers!

 

[Adorno]

And Depp won the case. So all is right in the world

(I actually voted no on joining common defence policy).

 

[Mad Vader]

And Depp won the case. So all is right in the world

You are not a true Guardian reader. I couldn't care less either way, but the alt-right mysoginist tribes were so obsessed by this, that I took a vague anti-Depp side. There's an official incel holiday right now because of this.

Edit: I'm disappointed in The Guardian, who published several pro-Heard opinion pieces, but no objective analysis critical of Heard.
This is when media activism (Guardian does feminist activism as a matter of editorial policy) goes too far. Similarly to their pro-immigrant activism, you can't get objective reporting. Their piece on the trial result was a formal 101 journalism quoting statements from both sides. The opinion piece that was published at the same time, is very strongly anti-Depp and mourns the misogynist backlash.
It's as tribal as the alt-right (somewhat truthful) demonization of Heard.

(I actually voted no on joining common defence policy).

Because you don't want to make NATO more obsolete?
We have to protect our Baltic brothers without begging the next Trump, brother. And Poland. Okay, maybe it's not a great idea.

 

[Adorno]

The Depp-Heard case was so complex I didn't side with anyone. Sounded like a mutually abusive partnership.
But terrible to learn how Heard made up the allegations, and how she now keeps pretending to be the victim.

The past years the EU common defence policy has involved the EU in several areas of conflict. The most recent operations are mainly on the African continent. Countries like Mali and Somalia. It doesn't look like there's any geographical limits to where the EU army can be involved. I'm concerned about providing help with law enforcement or border management to severely corrupt countries. I think little is gained and money is wasted.
I also see how the missions are based on geopolitical interests (like France in Africa) by major players in the EU, and not necessarily where it's mostly needed.
It's of course not all bad. There are also civilian, peace keeping operations that sound okay. I'm just pointing out some concerns.

 

[Count Delinard]

The EU is saved

 

[Mad Vader]

I'm told that's not actually a Danish military vehicle (it's Italian) nor is it part of Danish armed forces, it's just a joke photo.
Danes are actually far more dangerous than that, if they don't surrender in the first six hours, because their bike lanes were under bombing threat.

 

[DanAngleland]

The EU is saved

Perhaps the enemy is supposed to assume the vehicle is a normal size, meaning that the soldiers are giants, and therefore terrifying.

 

[kurczak]

My problem isn't that the idea of universal rights are applied inconsistently, but the fact that they are applied at all in the realm of geopolitics. It is only the west that elevates abstract moral concepts like human rights and democracy to geopolitics.

So what, you don't live there, and nothing your policymakers can do besides war will change that. If Russians are fine with living in a country with a hypocritical regime (most people are), leave them to it. All this moral language about "criticising" or "denouncing" countries you can only know via the media, and will probably never even set foot in, via your own contingent moral standards, strikes me as bizzare evangelizing behaviour.

What's the difference really between forcing your morals on someone domestically and internationally.

It's not always effectiveness either. Forcing Russia to do or this or that is a tall order, but the US government is without exaggeration unironically more capable of effecting a policy change in some hapless Caribbean, Latin or Pacific country than in it's own country.

 

[eddiemccandless]

(it's Italian)

I can confirm that, my grandpa used to man a similar model. It didn't have a cannon but was way deadly on account of the unpredictable swerving on roundabouts.

 

[Baguette Eater]

That's a machine-gun

 

[eddiemccandless]

Close enough.

 

[Baguette Eater]

No, actually. Huge difference!

 

[Zombie Warrior]

The Depp-Heard case was so complex I didn't side with anyone. Sounded like a mutually abusive partnership.
But terrible to learn how Heard made up the allegations, and how she now keeps pretending to be the victim.

Same. I couldn't find myself to take a side or really understand what was happening. However, I didn't follow closely the case. I figured it was more celebrity drama and I consider my time too precious to burden myself with those kind of american news

The EU is saved

Looks a lot like this:

 

[Baguette Eater]

Can confirm. Those LAV's and Leo's you see in picture as just cleverly dressed cardboard.

Though, it really *is* appropriate that those guys are actually Armored guys, and not just infantrymen doing silly ****.