TaleWorlds News: New News Necessary for the OT Neophytes

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Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
What is a CO (commanding officer)?
You're being too kind on the horror regime of Taliban in the 90's.
Whether they're different now than 20 year ago, remains to be seen. I think it's exceedingly naïve to think that.
At least a generation of young people (women!) got to see what life can be like outside a repressive islamist terror regime.

Otherwise I agree. The US and allies could stay there 20 more years and nothing would change.
It was a complete joke to see how negotiations were made with the Taliban in recent years.
 
After 9 11, US politicians had the choice of looking impotent or attacking a scapegoat. A war initiated on that basis was never likely to lead to anything good.

...You're being too kind on the horror regime of Taliban in the 90's...
The same Taliban that the CIA happily armed, funded and trained to topple the Russian puppet government.
 
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Vermillion_Hawk

Butthurt Bushmaster
Grandmaster Knight
WF&SWBVC
I'm seeing a ridiculous number of articles from reputable news sources with, either implicit or otherwise, low-key praise of the Taliban and usually a bon mot at the end about how that'll teach America for trying to be a colonial power, etc. etc.

Because Afghans are literally risking death to get out of the country because the Taliban are purely benevolent overlords. Corrupt and apparently useless the government may have been, at least they weren't Islamist hell.

I ****ing hate where the world is. It's an absolute disgrace that NATO hasn't acted yet, and even worse that Biden stands by his decision for non-intervention. Ideally other allies would step up to do something, but I can't see my own government doing so.
 
What is a CO (commanding officer)?
You're being too kind on the horror regime of Taliban in the 90's.
Whether they're different now than 20 year ago, remains to be seen. I think it's exceedingly naïve to think that.
At least a generation of young people (women!) got to see what life can be like outside a repressive islamist terror regime.

Otherwise I agree. The US and allies could stay there 20 more years and nothing would change.
It was a complete joke to see how negotiations were made with the Taliban in recent years.
Commanding officer, yes.

I don't mean to be kind to the Taliban and their past horrors, they are not a force for good, and are indeed an extremist and tyrannical organization. They're definitely different than they were 20 years ago, but when I say different, I do necessarily mean better. They are smart and are probably not going to want to do something to bring NATO or the UN on their ass like their last government suffered, at least not more than what would be expected. More likely though, that mostly just means that they'll be more secretive when doing grievous acts, and more diplomatically nice.

There's still a part of me that almost admires the relentless persistence and the sheer will of the Taliban, and your average Taliban fighter is probably some rural guy who experienced something terrible with the ANA or the US military and thus wanted to fight them out of a sense of purpose. The Taliban are extreme, but they are not quite as horrifyingly murderous and terrible as the Islamic State(less) for example. They are an evil organization, yes, but still made of human beings with a fairly backward cultural upbringing as opposed to monsters, though it's got monsters too. Overall, it's a black hour for human rights. From what I've heard, rural areas in Afghanistan are often pretty pro-Taliban, while the urban areas are much less so. I'd rather not have a Taliban government, but I'd rather the Afghan people form their own fight and will against the Taliban and build off of that, not the US wrapping their greedy hands around the situation, dictating, and holding the hand of Afghanistan.

I'm seeing a ridiculous number of articles from reputable news sources with, either implicit or otherwise, low-key praise of the Taliban and usually a bon mot at the end about how that'll teach America for trying to be a colonial power, etc. etc.

Because Afghans are literally risking death to get out of the country because the Taliban are purely benevolent overlords. Corrupt and apparently useless the government may have been, at least they weren't Islamist hell.

I ****ing hate where the world is. It's an absolute disgrace that NATO hasn't acted yet, and even worse that Biden stands by his decision for non-intervention. Ideally other allies would step up to do something, but I can't see my own government doing so.
I disagree. The government was not just corrupt with racketeering, but also child molesting, war crimes, rape, executions, torture, you name it. These were not isolated incidents either. Much of their actions, and even a fair amount of NATO's actions, make you question how much of a "good guy" this side really is. What is NATO supposed to do? Spend another 20 years there? Even if that happened, the Taliban would've still probably outdone the ANA. I very much agree with Biden's decision, this is not anyone's fight but Afghanistan's. NATO's presence just made things worse, they should've gotten out after the Taliban were toppled. The US keeps going into these countries and this keeps happening, over and over again.
 
I'm seeing a ridiculous number of articles from reputable news sources with, either implicit or otherwise, low-key praise of the Taliban and usually a bon mot at the end about how that'll teach America for trying to be a colonial power, etc. etc.
What kind of articles do you read? I don't see anything but expressions of horror and sadness (maybe implicit praise for the Taliban speed record in winning the war), and Western navel-gazing about where did it go wrong.
I ****ing hate where the world is. It's an absolute disgrace that NATO hasn't acted yet, and even worse that Biden stands by his decision for non-intervention. Ideally other allies would step up to do something, but I can't see my own government doing so.
The reality of the situation is that once the US decided to withdraw (under Trump) it was a curtain call for everyone in NATO (this is exactly what European leaders are saying) - NATO without the US doesn't have the political will or the resources to fight a long low-scale insurgency or engage in a nation building exercise. So blame the war weariness in the US (and democracies in general) that allowed Trump to campaign on withdrawal and then make a great fictional deal without any leverage left. Not that someone else would have been more successful.
I would be angry about populists exploiting war weariness to get into power, instead of explaining to their voters just why they need to remain engaged in parts of the world.
NATO's presence just made things worse, they should've gotten out after the Taliban were toppled. The US keeps going into these countries and this keeps happening, over and over again.
I think the emerging consensus is that nation building (with prolonged occupation) is futile. The political objective after a military intervention should be political stability at all costs, even if "bad guys" need to be included in the government, but the US can't help building up puppet regimes and trying to groom a client state for future use.
 
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kurczak

Section Moderator
WB
Net result of the 20 years of war:

200k+ dead
trillion(s?) of dollars donated to weapons and construction companies
winning over the hearts and minds of Bill Kristol
1 dead Osama (kinda)

and there are people who think the withdrawal was premature. me, I'm ridin' with Biden now.
 

DanAngleland

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNW
After 9 11, US politicians had the choice of looking impotent or attacking a scapegoat. A war initiated on that basis was never likely to lead to anything good.


The same Taliban that the CIA happily armed, funded and trained to topple the Russian puppet government.
I don't think they could have done- they funded the mujahideen fighters in the '80s, but the Taliban weren't even a thing until '94. America stopped funding to Afghan fighters shortly after the Soviets withdrew. If anyone can be blamed for the rise of the Taliban it is hardcore Islamists in Pakistan's ISI and the Arab nations who had been sending masses of funding and fundamentalists into the country.
 
I don't think they could have done- they funded the mujahideen fighters in the '80s, but the Taliban weren't even a thing until '94. America stopped funding to Afghan fighters shortly after the Soviets withdrew. If anyone can be blamed for the rise of the Taliban it is hardcore Islamists in Pakistan's ISI and the Arab nations who had been sending masses of funding and fundamentalists into the country.
The group was formed in the early 1990s by Afghan mujahideen, or Islamic guerilla fighters, who had resisted the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan (1979–89) with the covert backing of the CIA and its Pakistani counterpart, the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate (ISI). They were joined by younger Pashtun tribesmen who studied in Pakistani madrassas, or seminaries; taliban is Pashto for “students.”
 

DanAngleland

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNW
That quote makes it sound as if Afghan muj = proto-Taliban, and that America was knowingly creating a fighting force of Islamic fundamentalists. In reality there wasn't even such a force in the country when America stopped being involved. The Taliban were hardcore Islamists, and that sort of mentality barely existed in Afghanistan until after years of Arab 'Jihadis' and leaders brought in by Arab states during the Soviet invasion (the Arabs sent loads of money as well; there would have been foreign money flowing into Afghanistan even if America had never been involved). In fact the large Arab influx of fighters during and after the Soviet occupation were said to have been nearly useless in combat, and the Soviet puppet was finally ousted in the early 90s by Tajik warlords (ie not the ones the ISI had been shovelling money and help to since the early 70s), so . What's more, although the US supplied money and weapons, they barely had any direct interaction with the tribes of Afghanistan, everything went through the ISI, who chose who weapons went to and gave the most encouragement to the Islamists, who they had favoured for a long time out of self interest. If America had never been involved, there would still have been a Taliban, because all the ingredients would have been essentially the same.

When the Taliban formed, they were very small indeed, and it is only because they were both successful and seen to be helping citizens who had been victimised by the various competing warlords in southern Afghanistan where the chaos was worst in the early 90s that they quickly gained a lot of followers (particularly among the fundamentalist Arabs who had come to the country not with the help or say so of the Americans, but with the help of Arab nations, and with Pakistanis who had never previously set foot in Afghanistan but now rushed in to join the cause). That some of the founders happened to be among the many mujahideen that America had sent help to is not really relevant. It's just a lazy bit of America blaming; 'don't complain about the terrorist nutters, you made them!' Even though it's not true.
 

Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC

Asked whether the Biden administration recognizes the Taliban as the legitimate rulers of Afghanistan, Sullivan* said it was too soon to say and that the Taliban’s record of adhering to international human rights standards “has not been good.”
*White House national security adviser
 

Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
Not the original by The Band? Pft!


"We have ongoing discussions, we are quite optimistic based on those discussions," UNICEF's chief of field operations in Afghanistan, Mustapha Ben Messaoud, told a U.N. briefing

Rupert Colville, spokesman for Michelle Bachelet, the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, said the worries of many Afghans about the Taliban were "thoroughly understandable".
...
 
I think those kinds of Taliban statements serve to pacify internal unrest and soften their international image. They all have small print attached like "within our interpretation of Islam" and "if our hardline theologians allow". They'll drop that act soon as their actions show it's a lie.
I simply don't see how they could impose greater equality for women on their own followers. There are already forced marriages of local girls to Taliban fighters, which is their real level of understanding of women's rights.

Also note that some international organizations and politicians issue overly optimistic statements because they need to suck up to the Taliban to get something from them. This is normal practice, but those statements are not too credible. Read analysts' opinions instead.
 

Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
I know. It's just tragically comical to see that kind of optimism and downright arrogance. Women are hiding and being forced to leave their jobs etc. (and that's just the beginning), and the man says "they're quite optimistic ... and worries are understandable". Oh, is it now? **** you.
 

Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
Raping kids has been costly for you. Here's some money.
(July 2020)
The U.S. Roman Catholic Church used a special and unprecedented exemption from federal rules to amass at least $1.4 billion in taxpayer-backed coronavirus aid, with many millions going to dioceses that have paid huge settlements or sought bankruptcy protection because of clergy sexual abuse cover-ups.
 

Pentagathoos

Regular
Hey now, being raped as a child is a small price to pay for eternal salvation Adorno. You've got to break a few eggs to make an omelette, and sometimes you have to cover up a few cases of child rape to make a church. I for one don't believe the catholic church has been given enough money.
 
Two explosions occurred at the Kabul airport earlier today, killing 60+ Afghans and 10 US Marines. The Pentagon is confident that IS was behind the attacks. Some reports also list Taliban fighters among the dead. Biden had to cancel his meeting with the Israeli PM to discuss the situation.

Meanwhile, a third explosion was heard just minutes ago. More casualties to follow.
According to Kabul sources, there may be '100-200 IS fighters' snuck among the Afghan refugees.
Update: One more explosion.
When will this end...
 
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