TaleWorlds News: New News Necessary for the OT Neophytes

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eddiemccandless

Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
Yeah the ot,her "area of the world" that makes up the remainder is probably Bosnia :xf-tongue: The only non-Muslim countries that are significant sources of immigrants to Sweden are Poland and Finland. I really don't think it's the Finnish guys. The Polish....ehh I wouldn't bet all my money they're not over-represented, tbh.

It's not even remotely racist. I did not and am not saying that all (Swedish) Muslims are rapists or murderers, not even most, nor even many.

Right, only the foreigners are. You really don't see the racism in that? Seriously? Also, Bosnia has better rape statistics than Sweden. Which is not difficult, given that Sweden has the highest numbers in Europe (and it did way before refugees started coming in - but of course that is complicated by the fact that the laws are different country by country so, again, it's more complicated that it seems at first glance).

If there was news that the Swedish government want to deal with the recent surge of child abuse and I would make a joke that "uh-oh the Catholics are at it again" it wouldn't rustle any non-Catholic jimmies. And even a lot of Catholics would politely chuckle. Indeed it would be bigoted of me not to make fun of Muslims, just because it's Muslims.

To reiterate what @MadVader said, it wouldn't rustle any feathers because Catholics are in a position of power in Western countries, so you (or anything else) saying that is not representative of an actual threat to them. That's why they can afford to chuckle. I promise they wouldn't if people were constantly threatening to expel them from the country they live in because of their religion.

Immigrant Muslims on the other hand are being targeted every day (and in fact the SVT made that report because anti immigrant sentiments where a pretty strong topic in the political conversation).

I would even go so far as to say that anti immigrant sentiments might play a big role in why so many of those convictions were for foreigners, although of course I have no way of proving that because there is no data available on the demographics of people being accused of rape vs people being convicted.

Edit: interesting read on rape in nordic countries, about two years old. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...al-violence-in-nordic-countries-consent-laws/

Edit n.2: just to be clear, saying that you are being racist is not a judgement on you as a person. Honestly, I believe that most people discriminate others based on a variety of factors, to different degrees, myself included. The point is that you have to be aware that you are doing it, and you have to be aware that it's wrong so that you can try and do better as time goes by.
 
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kurczak

Section Moderator
WB
@MadVader What are you, the thought & motivation police?:xf-grin: You spent too much time "trolling alt-right forums" or whatever it was and now everything is an alt-right nail to your righteous hammer. I've made fun of all kinds of groups of people here. I've hated on specific individuals or organizations only. It's just that you don't really register it unless it's a "protected" group. Then you fume about it and make a note in your Diary of an Alt-Right Hunter. Besides I don't recognize the concept of "punching up/down" anyway.

@eddiemccandless No, obviously not "only" foreigners. But 58% for what is a crazy big over-representation. But let's go back to what Adorno posted - that there's a spike of murders of women. That's not an optical illusion due to varying legal definitions. Or because people only report it, supposedly, when it's a foreigner. I brought up the rape statistics as a supporting argument that Swedish Muslims as a group, on average, ok, have a higher incidence of violence against women than ethnic Swedes, because yeah the levels of misogyny in Muslim-majority cultures are order of magnitudes higher than among ethnically Scandinavian men. If we're did the Rawls's veil of ignorance test, would you rather, all other things equal, be born as a woman in a random MENA country than in Scandinavia?

giphy.gif
 

eddiemccandless

Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
Ok but... The spike of murders happened in 2020. Immigrants came in mass to Sweden long before that. The article that Adorno linked doesn't even mention Muslims, or immigrants for that matter (which is why I was puzzled when you brought that up).

And the thing is, the data does not support the thesis that Muslims have a higher incidence of violence against women. It shows that they were overrepresented in terms of convictions (which is not when they are reported, it's when they are found guilty) over that period of time. Again, we are talking about 200 convictions over five years, against a total of 843 convictions and around 36500 reported cases. The numbers simply do not say what you are trying to make them say. You are reading in them what you want to read. I really wish we had the data on the demographics for reported crimes, I would be willing to bet money on the fact that ethnic Swedes are convicted way less than foreigners.

As far as the Sweden VS MENA comparison goes, you are again oversimplifying something that does not have a simple answer. First of all the statistics on violence against women were horrible in Sweden long before immigrants started coming in. Does not look like heaven on Earth for women to me. Second, not all countries in MENA are the same. Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan are terrible in terms of women rights, for sure, but not all countries in that area are like that. Third, even if you assume that all countries are as bad as Saudi Arabia, the people who come to Sweden are leaving for a reason. You can't just automatically assume that people who were born in a country automatically agree with every law their government passed, and in fact chances are that if they are leaving, they don't.

What I honestly find insane is that you are automatically assuming that people will commit a crime just based on where they are from and what their religion is, and you are a policewoman for crying out loud 😅. The fact that you don't even see why what you are doing here is wrong is terrifying. If you are representative of how the average police officer thinks guess I better make sure to shave everyday before I go out and about. When my beard is long I kind of look middle eastern, wouldn't want to get in trouble over that.
 

kurczak

Section Moderator
WB
Ok but... The spike of murders happened in 2020. Immigrants came in mass to Sweden long before that. The article that Adorno linked doesn't even mention Muslims, or immigrants for that matter (which is why I was puzzled when you brought that up).

And the thing is, the data does not support the thesis that Muslims have a higher incidence of violence against women. It shows that they were overrepresented in terms of convictions (which is not when they are reported, it's when they are found guilty) over that period of time. Again, we are talking about 200 convictions over five years, against a total of 843 convictions and around 36500 reported cases. The numbers simply do not say what you are trying to make them say. You are reading in them what you want to read. I really wish we had the data on the demographics for reported crimes, I would be willing to bet money on the fact that ethnic Swedes are convicted way less than foreigners.
I love this line of thought. It's the woke dogma, if there are two groups and one exhibits higher rates of <bad thing> or has fewer stuff, or is less educated etc, it is by definition due to "systemic" oppression.

As if the default, paradise-like state of humanity is that everything is randomly distributed and the only thing this heavenly balance can be disturbed by is an act of power.

Yes, exactly, I would bet money Swedes are convicted way less too, because they commit crimes way less, not because the cops and judges are such racist scum (in Sweden of all places lol) or that Swedish women (again Swedish) are racists to such an extent that they are willing to just shrug off being raped by a Sven, but immediately run to the cops if it's an Abdul.

As far as the Sweden VS MENA comparison goes, you are again oversimplifying something that does not have a simple answer. First of all the statistics on violence against women were horrible in Sweden long before immigrants started coming in. Does not look like heaven on Earth for women to me. Second, not all countries in MENA are the same. Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan are terrible in terms of women rights, for sure, but not all countries in that area are like that. Third, even if you assume that all countries are as bad as Saudi Arabia, the people who come to Sweden are leaving for a reason.
Hence "random country". Yeah maybe you will be an upper class woman in Beirut and life will be relatively good.
You can't just automatically assume that people who were born in a country automatically agree with every law their government passed, and in fact chances are that if they are leaving, they don't.
I am assuming no such thing. There is a small fraction of immigrants who are really attracted to their new country and wish to leave the old country and old life behind, but most are just trying to upgrade economically or avoid war, but they wish to retain their culture and way of life. They may disagree with the current government and whatnot, but that doesn't make them "converts".

That of course doesn't make them murderers, but it does mean they don't magically become culturally Swedish once they got papers, let alone when they just physically live in Sweden. Similarly you and I will never really be Americans, even if we become full citizens. You're probably not even trying :razz:
What I honestly find insane is that you are automatically assuming that people will commit a crime just based on where they are from and what their religion is, and you are a policewoman for crying out loud 😅. The fact that you don't even see why what you are doing here is wrong is terrifying. If you are representative of how the average police officer thinks guess I better make sure to shave everyday before I go out and about. When my beard is long I kind of look middle eastern, wouldn't want to get in trouble over that.
I was a policewoman, quite some time ago. Anyway, this is almost a cartoonish exageration of what I am saying. Yes, of course the incredibly vast, vast majority of Muslims in any country don't murder women. But if one group (this is a pure example, I'm not saying this applies to any real world scenario) produces 1 lady-killer for every 100,000 people and group B produces 1 lady-killer for every 1,000 people, then both statments are true: Group B consists almost entirely of non-lady-killers and group B has a much bigger problem with femicide than group A.
 
The police forces around the world have a right-wing culture. This is the type of environment where young Kurczak adopted an identity and a value system built around force and order.
She would be high-fiving Chauvin while he chokes minorities, if it weren't a bit embarrassing in finer society. It's pure snobism that keeps her from running a concentration camp in her backyard - what would the neighbors say?
 

eddiemccandless

Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
I love this line of thought. It's the woke dogma, if there are two groups and one exhibits higher rates of <bad thing> or has fewer stuff, or is less educated etc, it is by definition due to "systemic" oppression.

As if the default, paradise-like state of humanity is that everything is randomly distributed and the only thing this heavenly balance can be disturbed by is an act of power.

Yes, exactly, I would bet money Swedes are convicted way less too, because they commit crimes way less, not because the cops and judges are such racist scum (in Sweden of all places lol) or that Swedish women (again Swedish) are racists to such an extent that they are willing to just shrug off being raped by a Sven, but immediately run to the cops if it's an Abdul.

I feel that there is a fundamental miscommunication on something here. You are not hearing what I am saying. The statistics that you have are for people who were judged guilty of the crime. About a quarter of them are from Middle East. Those 840 something people who were convicted of rape are a minuscule number when compared to the number of people who actually committed the crime. You do not have the data to generalize the way that you are doing. This part is not about politics, it's about math. What in this is not clear? @MadVader, help me out here. Do you understand what I am saying? I am wondering if I am doing a poor job at explaining it.

Women are more likely to report rape if it's from a stranger than if it is from someone in their family, as I am sure you know. And violence from a family member represents the overwhelming majority of the cases. And as far as convicting the foreigner vs a native born, that is not about being "racist scum", it's about bias and it's a thing in every country in the world. And Sweden is not the monocromatic progressive heaven that you imagine it to be. Look up the Swedish Democrats, they're a lot of fun.

Anyway it looks like Sweden is moving in the right direction to address the problem (which is not locking up and deporting Muslims, which seems to be where your line of thought is headed).


As far as the murders go, time will tell. Given that they happened in 2020 what comes to my mind first as a possible explanation is covid (and I am honestly wondering how that went in other countries now).

P.S.: of course I will never be the same as an American born citizen, nor would I want to. That would mean throwing away an important part of who I am. It does not mean that my nationality makes me more likely to commit a crime (inb4 mafia jokes).

Edit: moar sources, which you might or might not actually read, who knows (but what do you know, the Swedish government says pretty much what I am saying).

 
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Zombie Warrior

Sergeant Knight
The best thing you can do if you choose where you're born is to be born on Mars. There are no murderers on Mars! Granted, the lack of a proper atmosphere will give you all the space you need to breathe - literally - and the sunshine may be unhealthy for your body, but at least you're safe from rapists, murderers and global warming ~ yay
 

eddiemccandless

Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
I know that she is, that's why I am wondering if I am not being clear x)

And as far as Mars goes, let's not forget who the "Emperor of Mars" is.
 

Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
The article that Adorno linked doesn't even mention Muslims, or immigrants for that matter ...
The article doesn't mention ethnicity because they never do. Practically no crime reports do, unless the person is deported as part of the punishment, or the police are asking for help identifying a perpetrator (with phrases like "dark skinned" or "Middle Eastern looking").

Rape is not a good indicator of crime in general, since so many are not reported and few end up being found guilty. It's easier to establish a crime when there's a dead body.
But the Reuters article on "revamping rape legislation" is good news, and Denmark has also followed suit.

But in terms of crime then 'non-western immigrants' (a sort of euphemism for people from mainly Africa and the Middle East) are far more criminal that others, and Sweden has seen a rapid rise in recent years. About 50% of crime suspects are either immigrants or descendants.
That number also goes for rape.

In Stockholm alone (1.6 mio.) there are more gang members than in all of Denmark (5.6 mio.).
Areas with many immigrants (like Malmø, Rinkeby and Rosengård) have high rates of crime, especially organised, and police have a hard time operating there. Last year from January to August the were 78 explosions in Sweden. Mainly in those areas. Something almost unheard of just 10-15 years ago.

In 2015-2016 in 10 out of 12 investigated cases of homicide or attempted murder, the suspect was immigrant, according to police chief Peter Springare.

Ej folkbokförda = non registered citizens
Utrikes födda = Foreigners
Inrikes födda med en eller två utrikas födda föräldrar = Born in Sweden with 1 or 2 foreign parents
Inrikes födda med två Inrikes födda föräldrar = Born in Sweden with two parents born in Sweden.
2hQsr.jpg


Google Translate
The excess risks thus differ greatly between the crime categories and between the regions of origin.
For the crime category murder and manslaughter stands persons with a foreign background including not registered for 72 percent of the crimes (Illustration 5, see page 2:cool:.
For robberies, the figure is 68 percent (Illustration 9, see page 31), for assault 62 percent (Illustration 6, see page 29) and for theft 63 percent (Illustration 10, see page 32).

The numbers can't be explained by the rise in immigration alone.

All in all Immigrants of non-western origin are far more criminal than both the original Swedish population and other immigrants (including Asia, such as Indians and Chinese).

Sorry about all the Swedish sources.
 

Nega-Brutus

Sergeant
As far as I remember, ''Muslim'' isn't an accurate indicator because Morrocans, Turks and Syrians are overrepresented in different types of crimes (like white people being overrepresented in white-collar crimes or money laundering amounting to millions, or even billions in the Netherlands). Syrians and Lebanese people for example are often very Western like already with similar views on women. But I know a Hijabi that works with police data, and seeing the amount of Muslim-sounding names is bound to make you racist if you're not nuanced about it.

That being said, as a Muslim immigrant, while I can ****ing smell from a mile and despise each racist wormy rat ****, I sincerely hate the women beaters and deniers as much, and I think it's fine to generalize to that we have a problem in the ''Muslim communities'' to an extent, personally.

EDIT: I haven't read the above discussion in full so ignore this if I'm just talking to myself here. Oh yeah, to emphasize, white people arguably don't commit less crimes. They commit crimes in smarter ways that aren't caught, and of a bigger order if you're talking about monetary stuff.

We have to use generalizations to isolate a crime to our best ability and apply the necessary methods of curbing or mitigating it. And no other reasons. That's a healthy way to look at it, imo.
 
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eddiemccandless

Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
The article doesn't mention ethnicity because they never do. Practically no crime reports do, unless the person is deported as part of the punishment, or the police are asking for help identifying a perpetrator (with phrases like "dark skinned" or "Middle Eastern looking").

Rape is not a good indicator of crime in general, since so many are not reported and few end up being found guilty. It's easier to establish a crime when there's a dead body.
But the Reuters article on "revamping rape legislation" is good news, and Denmark has also followed suit.

But in terms of crime then 'non-western immigrants' (a sort of euphemism for people from mainly Africa and the Middle East) are far more criminal that others, and Sweden has seen a rapid rise in recent years. About 50% of crime suspects are either immigrants or descendants.
That number also goes for rape.

In Stockholm alone (1.6 mio.) there are more gang members than in all of Denmark (5.6 mio.).
Areas with many immigrants (like Malmø, Rinkeby and Rosengård) have high rates of crime, especially organised, and police have a hard time operating there. Last year from January to August the were 78 explosions in Sweden. Mainly in those areas. Something almost unheard of just 10-15 years ago.

In 2015-2016 in 10 out of 12 investigated cases of homicide or attempted murder, the suspect was immigrant, according to police chief Peter Springare.

Ej folkbokförda = non registered citizens
Utrikes födda = Foreigners
Inrikes födda med en eller två utrikas födda föräldrar = Born in Sweden with 1 or 2 foreign parents
Inrikes födda med två Inrikes födda föräldrar = Born in Sweden with two parents born in Sweden.
2hQsr.jpg


Google Translate




The numbers can't be explained by the rise in immigration alone.

All in all Immigrants of non-western origin are far more criminal than both the original Swedish population and other immigrants (including Asia, such as Indians and Chinese).

Sorry about all the Swedish sources.

Et tu, Adorne! :smile: it took me a bit to go through your sources but here I am.

https://detgodasamhallet.com/ does not exactly seem to be a good source. It has been listed as a populist right wing website in a report from sociologists at University of Gothenburg.

https://du.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1230181/FULLTEXT01.pdf (page 10)

That leads me to taking anything they write, including the graph that you include in the image, with a lot of suspicion. Their aim is to prove that immigrants are dangerous, they can not be expected to analyze this impartially (that is why I linked sources from the Swedish government in a previous post, I would imagine that those are as impartial as one can get on this topic).

I agree that rape is not a good indicator of general criminal behavior, for the reasons that you mention. Regarding the relationship between the increase in crime and immigration, again I refer to the government.se source that I linked previously.


In particular this paragraph:

Facts: The Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Brå) has conducted two studies on the representation of people with foreign backgrounds among crime suspects, the most recent in 2005. The studies show that the majority of those suspected of crimes were born in Sweden with two Swedish-born parents. The studies also show that the vast majority of people with foreign backgrounds are not suspected of any crime. People with foreign backgrounds are suspected of crimes more often than people with Swedish backgrounds. According to the most recent study, people with foreign backgrounds are 2.5 times more likely to be suspected of crimes than people born in Sweden to Swedish-born parents.

In a study from 2013, researchers at Stockholm University showed that the main difference in terms of criminal activity between immigrants and others in the population in Sweden was due to differences in the socioeconomic conditions in which they grew up. This means factors such as parents’ incomes and the social conditions in the area in which an individual grew up.

A literature review by Brå in 2019, covering Nordic studies on crime and foreign background 2005-2019, finds similar results - people with foreign background are somewhat overrepresented, and the overrepresentation vary between countries of origin and type of crime. According to Brå factors that lead to segregation – for example low level of education and lack of employment or other occupation – also seem to contribute to a higher level of crime amongst people with foreign background. Factors as war traumas, mental illness and the level of crime, conflict and economic development in the country of origin might also be factors that contribute to explain some of the differences.

(the first paragraph has me a bit confused though since it seems to say two contradicting things? not sure, maybe I am just not understanding it)

There are some additional links and documents posted right after that paragraph that I can not understand because they are not in English, I would be curious to know what they say (e.g. this one).

Let's also not forget that there has been a lot of political strife around this issue, and that there are political actors that have every interest in making a case for the immigrants=criminals equation. It sure is a simple explanation and very easy for a native born to digest, but as I believe I have said before... Things are rarely that simple.

I am not quite sure what the portal.research.lu.se link said, and I would be curious to know since that seems to be a good source (Lund University I believe?).
 
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Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
I'm also sorry I have to use the "detgodasamhallet.com". But please notice their sources are Brå (the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention), the same as the government uses here:

I'm not impressed by that article because they try to downplay the severity. It's better to look at the numbers.
They don't distinguish between non-western immigrants and immigrants. Here Danish crime statistics are much more accurate, looking at each country. Not just overall ethnic groups.
Even the clear conclusion that immigrants relatively commit more crime than other groups is not straight out acknowledged. Instead socio-economic factors are highlighted to point out there's a "good reason" behind it.

The overall trend in lethal violence was downward until 2014, with relatively large variations from year to year. Since 2015, the number of cases has remained at a higher level than in previous years.
"Somewhat" is putting it mildly.
A literature review by Brå in 2019, covering Nordic studies on crime and foreign background 2005-2019, finds similar results - people with foreign background are somewhat overrepresented, and the overrepresentation vary between countries of origin and type of crime. According to Brå factors that lead to segregation – for example low level of education and lack of employment or other occupation – also seem to contribute to a higher level of crime amongst people with foreign background.

The two first sentences here are a bit silly:
The studies show that the majority of those suspected of crimes were born in Sweden with two Swedish-born parents. The studies also show that the vast majority of people with foreign backgrounds are not suspected of any crime. People with foreign backgrounds are suspected of crimes more often than people with Swedish backgrounds. According to the most recent study, people with foreign backgrounds are 2.5 times more likely to be suspected of crimes than people born in Sweden to Swedish-born parents.

On rape (no words on immigrants):
According to both the adjusted statistics and the mentioned victim survey, women in Sweden are though more exposed to rape than in countries in southern and eastern Europe, such as Spain, Portugal, Poland and Greece. These differences might be due to more rapes actually taking place in Sweden, but it could also be due to women in Sweden to a greater extent report incidents to the police and being more willing to talk about it in a victim survey.

The portal.research.lu.se is just an article on the many immigrant gangs, shootings and bombings in Sweden in recent years. Mainly southern parts and Stockholm.
 

eddiemccandless

Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
The socio economic factor are not irrelevant though. They point to how one can address the problem. If the reason why immigrants are overrepresented in crime statistics is that they are much poorer and less educated, that's the solution to the issue right there (as opposed to say closing borders and deportation because immigrants are inherently bad).

I have been looking at the Brå website, but I actually can't find the data relative to immigrants. It has to be there since it's referred to by multiple sources, I just wasn't able to see it. Given that the populist blog and the Swedish government seem to come to different conclusions starting from the same data, the only way to better understand what is going on is looking at the data itself (I am still inclined to put more stock in the Swedish government, but I could be wrong).

I found this paper which seemed like a potentially objective good read on the issue:


but then when I looked up the author to learn a bit more about him I found this:


so this guy clearly does not have an objective stance on the problem either (and scholars are really, really good at presenting their personal opinion as objective truth). At this point I don't know that there is one to be found really.
 
Too bad we don't have any objective Swedish intellectuals on hand.
This is why diversity is important. :razz:

From some very unreliable anecdotes, I hear that the Swedish cities are divided by rival ethnic gangs, some coming from the Balkans - there was significant Balkan immigration to Sweden in the past (that's how they got Zlatan), but hey, at least we are not (all) Muslims, right Kurczak and Adorno? :smile:
From news sources I gather that significant part of violent crime there is inter-gang warfare. I also miss the victim ethnicity in the stats - they show only perp ethnicities.
 

Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
I mentioned the "socio-economic" factor because it doesn't change the statistics. Of course there are reasons why people commit crime.
I don't think I've used the word Muslim in this debate. It's more interesting to look at countries.
And here eastern Europe is interesting because they are also overrepresented i crime statistics. In Denmark it's especially Poles, Romanians, the Balkans, Lithuania. Sweden doesn't have that accurate statistics, that I know of.
And it's true many of the immigrant gangs consist of people from eastern Europe, The Middle East and Africa.

EDIT: Oh yeah, to emphasize, white people arguably don't commit less crimes. They commit crimes in smarter ways that aren't caught, and of a bigger order if you're talking about monetary stuff.
When you say 'white', are you referring to the US? In any case, how can you know they aren't caught?
You're probably right, but you can also imagine many other types of crimes that go unpunished. Many murders (worse crime than stealing) go unsolved. Organised crime such as extortion/blackmail are never reported (by the very nature of the crime). Police have a very hard time solving crimes in crime ridden areas because there's no cooperation from witnesses/the population. Sometimes a big load of illegal drugs are found, and it's presumed to be the tip of the iceberg. Children are sometimes used by gangs (and they don't show in the same crime statistics). As mentioned, many rapes are never reported, and few end up being found guilty. And so on.
I don't think you can reliably say white people (i.e. in a Swedish context, the ethnic Swedish population) commit less crime.
 
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eddiemccandless

Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
I don't think you can reliably say white people (i.e. in a Swedish context, the ethnic Swedish population) commit less crime.
And that's I think the main difference between your position and @kurczak's (at least from the way I understood it from her posts). I don't have a hard time believing that there is a difference in criminal behavior between immigrants and native born (and as the paper from the anti diversity guy pointed out, that changes depending on the country, there seems to be a tendency for immigrants to commit more crime in Northern Europe while the opposite is true for say the US). What I have a problem with are blanket statements based on race and religion, such as Muslims commit more crime (or Black people commit more crime which is the US equivalent). Both imply that those categories commit more crime because of their ethnicity. That is where the racism lies.
 

Nega-Brutus

Sergeant
When you say 'white', are you referring to the US? In any case, how can you know they aren't caught?
You're probably right, but you can also imagine many other types of crimes that go unpunished. Many murders (worse crime than stealing) go unsolved. Organised crime such as extortion/blackmail are never reported (by the very nature of the crime). Police have a very hard time solving crimes in crime ridden areas because there's no cooperation from witnesses/the population. Sometimes a big load of illegal drugs are found, and it's presumed to be the tip of the iceberg. Children are sometimes used by gangs (and they don't show in the same crime statistics). As mentioned, many rapes are never reported, and few end up being found guilty. And so on.
I don't think you can reliably say white people (i.e. in a Swedish context, the ethnic Swedish population) commit less crime.
No, I'm referring to natives in Europe as well as the US. There is no hard data about corruption because corruption is invisible (or many shades of grey). We can only construct models for the prediction of corruption. Or, in the case of the Netherlands for example, we can induce from gaps in the data how much money is lost (ie, billions) due to corruption. Resources that could have been used to teach an immigrant to speak Dutch and join the workforce, hence creating opportunity instead of making crime more attractive, or bringing him closer to the native society and opening him to new norms. Brown immigrants are visible, loud, alien, weird, their crimes manifest in obnoxious manners, so obviously, people hate the harm that they can best perceive from the least relatable group of people. Which probably becomes exaggerated, because it's seemingly the only harm.

I don't care how many children have been raped by how many immigrants ratio'd against how many billions are stolen and how many Asians are exploited by how many white people. And it's telling for me personally what the people that are doing these calculations are trying to confirm in their minds, to be frank. Not that I entirely blame them or am trying to guilt trip anyone. The specific types of crimes or immoral behavior of any sort of group is going to be overrepresented by that group depending on their background and activities, obviously.

The point I'm trying to make is that we're all from some particular slice of life, and instead of playing a blaming game and antagonizing and dehumanizing each other, we should just broadly recognize that our shortcomings, be they inherently formed by our culture, religion, inherited wealth, or profession or otherwise are all predetermined due to causal reasons. Reasons we can shape and form to make things a little better for people whatever their arbitrary slice of life may be.
 
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Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
Okay. Now you're broadening the discussion to all of Europe. That muddies the waters since corruption is very different from country to country.
Scandinavian countries as well as the Netherlands e.g. are at the top of least corrupt countries, with some eastern European countries being much further down the list.
Sadly some of the corruption, like tax evation, is within the law, with the EU shamefully having several tax havens.

But what I'm arguing is that many types of crimes go unsolved/unpunished. Not just crimes by wealthy people (white collar) but also all the other types mentioned above. And all these crimes are committed by all sorts of people, immigrants and natives.
You can't deduct that the native European populations commit less crime than immigrants because of unknowns. The unknowns also include immigrants. Don't forget immigrants are also corrupt, own companies/shops and commit fraud, money laundering and other types of financial scams (again, they are overrepresented).

I'm not dehumanizing, antagonizing etc. I'm referring mainly to crime statistics since we were discussing higher crime rates by immigrants.
It seems to be part of the debate that if you point out the many issues with immigrant crimes it's because you hate all immigrants. I don't. I hate criminals. We must be able to talk about the problems, especially in Sweden where they are severe. How else can we solve them?
I also don't care much about religion and skin colour - when crime is being debated - but more about country of origin and culture. (Eastern Europeans also top the crime charts here in Denmark).

(About the term "white people". It's not really used in a European context, and makes little sense here. It's a long discussion but historically white people conquered land from other white people, and problems with immigrants also very much include (white) eastern Europeans.
In the US it's a bit more black/white, with European settlers and (almost exclusively) black slaves. And the white population in the US were not also victims of slavery like Europeans were. The black populations in Europe mainly immigrated there freely and don't have the same history of being slaves, and so on.)
 

Nega-Brutus

Sergeant
Okay. Now you're broadening the discussion to all of Europe.
Yes. It's a cross-border phenomenon. The more financial systems and borders you pass through, the better you can hide the trace of the criminal origin of the money. Which is the reason why there are international frameworks for it.

That muddies the waters since corruption is very different from country to country.
Scandinavian countries as well as the Netherlands e.g. are at the top of least corrupt countries, with some eastern European countries being much further down the list.
Based on the corruption perception index. We have no data on actual corruption, as I've said.

You can't deduct that the native European populations commit less crime than immigrants because of unknowns.
I said that they don't arguable commit less. Implying they commit crimes/engage in undesirable behavior of a different order. I haven't even checked but I'm 100% that's not a controversial thing to say, or I'd even go as far as to say that it would be supported by any field of study you want to employ.

I'm not dehumanizing, antagonizing etc. I'm referring mainly to crime statistics since we were discussing higher crime rates by immigrants.
You asked me for clarification as to my post, you understand that, right?

It seems to be part of the debate that if you point out the many issues with immigrant crimes it's because you hate all immigrants. I don't. I hate criminals
It seems to be part of the debate that if you point out the many issues with immigration policies it's because you want to brandish people as immigrant haters. I don't. I hate immigrant haters.

We must be able to talk about the problems, especially in Sweden where they are severe. How else can we solve them?
Why would you think I disagree with solving problems?

I also don't care much about religion and skin colour - when crime is being debated - but more about country of origin and culture. (Eastern Europeans also top the crime charts here in Denmark).
Again, why are you telling me this exactly?

My posts had much more nuance to it, and I think you've missed the focal points. I have no clue how you got away with the understanding that I don't want to talk about immigrant crimes.
 
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