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Nodice83

Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
On that subject, does Poland have the same history with Catholic schools and orphanages that western nations have or did the jump from communism to modern nation prevent that?
If by "the same" you mean, children sexual and mental abuse, beating as the best way to discipline and so on (like in Canada), than yes Poland was and probably is no different. Even late communism didn't do much about it...they infiltrated RCC and many of the priests cooperated in exchange for "peacful existence".

Neglecting, beating and traumatizing children is very much against (not only) the Catholic doctrine. And what, until the Catholic church solves all world's problems it can't oppose abortions? Oh, you are against racism? Interesting you say that, since you STILL haven't solved global warming. Uh, hypocrite much?
Felt like i was in my primary school, just made a mistake in a math equation and this was all revealed by the "follow the key" teacher in front of my class ... except i don't really care this time cause I am very much aware of hypocrisy within me and saying that someone is not - is simply swaggering...

Let me use your strategy for a while and let see where it will leads us: Do i have to solve everybody's problems to have the law to say that someone has to stop giving advices on things he doesn't know anything about ?

I don't give a (you know what) about what CC will oppose or not. They won't solve a s**t so this is pretty bad example - i wouldn't count on it but easy here... i know what your point was. But of course they can oppose whatever they want.. i just won't tolerate to give them public mandate to antagonize, publicly stigmatize people saying their names in churches, advocating on those things. You seem to not know how tangible it can be especially in a small society where everybody knows the priest. Including policeman, major, doctor, hairdresser, teacher, name it !

Whatever i say is based on a sum of my experiences which resonant to this very day. I am not some armchair expert saying i have the law to decide what is good and what is not. I am not saying that life is saint and later hide evidence of its abuse within my organization or family. I also don't say abortion is easy for anybody to decide or to live with. Without it being legal in Poland it will become very much increased in Czechia (and it has alrady started).. Is it good ? This means you won't get rid of it completely. Let say no clinic in the world will do it. Will it be still earsed ? Maybe it would be better to start thinking on how to support raped woman so they decide to ultimately give birth... how to professionally help them to carry this burden. And although it is so simple and easy to make judgement for all those male virgins (i know they are mostly not) and decide for everybody what is best for them... i do find it not so simple and obvious at all.

I was raised in a very catholic country, very catholic family / society and simply cannot advocate on protestant, islamic or hindi countries - so doctrines of other major cultures/religion are rather distant to me. But even then my point is valid to those cultures and religions. Contrary to your examples pointed in my face to clearly disincourage (i see no other point, as you sounded very upset - i have not proven to save the world and dare to say such things)... And you missed a point by far because i did say i want to see them at least "trying"...
 
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kurczak

Section Moderator
WB
I'm calm as a Hindu cow. I'm essentially pro-choice, I just think the pro-choice arguments are usually terrible :razz:

I wasn't accusing you of failing to save the world :smile: I thought it was obvious it was satire of what I consider a fallacy that whenever religious, but typically Christians argue for some moral convictons, they are held - as a counterargument - to incredibly high standards of personal conduct. As if they were not allowed to have convictions unless they are some sort of cartoonish saint who has never done any wrong. Consider how insane it sounds when you remove the religious language from the equation - "You think people should recycle? But you are a bit of an alcoholic. Ha, you're not perfect and flawless, therefore your argument is invalid." It is actually even more absurd when applied to Christianity, since it's explicitly based on the concept that all sin, so "accusing" a Christian of being a sinner is kind of making their point for them.

Come on, there is **** tons of Catholic charities and social work outfits. I'm a lapsed Catholic, I have all kinds of problems and reservations about the Church, but this anti-Catholic memery that everything that has a crucifix on the wall is a house of terror and abuse is just Hollywood bull****. I have long term and excellent experience with several hospices and institutions for mentally retarded that are run by nuns that are absolute top tier in the whole country. I'm not saying it's all peachy, but it's not all awful either. I'm not taking away your bad experience from you, and I am under no illusion that it was super rare and unique. But it's also not the entire Catholic experience.
 
typically Christians argue for some moral convictons, they are held - as a counterargument - to incredibly high standards of personal conduct. As if they were not allowed to have convictions unless they are some sort of cartoonish saint who has never done any wrong.

It's a bluff, essentially. At least in America everyone knows the christian rhetoric in the anti abortion movement is just a facade.
It's the equivalent of some celebrity loudly proclaiming "I'm vehemently against sexism of any kind" while taking daily trips to Epstein island and beating their spouse. Calling out someone's hypocrisy is usually pointless, and it often gets used in online purity wars abd devolves into personality accusations, but when someone's explicit reasons for a belief are clearly a facade, I don't see anything wrong with highlighting that.
 
Yeah, a lot of what's coming from the lady cop is motivated by mockery and advocating the devil. If you accept this, debating her becomes more stress-free.
Or you could turn the tables around and grill her about her fierce anti-communist views, because what did the communists ever do for us?
 

Nodice83

Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
I'm calm as a Hindu cow. I'm essentially pro-choice, I just think the pro-choice arguments are usually terrible :razz:
Good, let us both breathe. Elaborate, what do you mean by pro-choice postulates ? Lets compare apples to apples.

Everybody has to establish a treshold of what is reasonable and what is not in his/hers life's decision making process. No holy book, legislation nor anybody's teachings will ever change that. It can influence it though. To quote the Geralt from Rivia.. "Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same." The only person who have to face all the consequences is the very person that acts. This is what the choice is (to me).

See i may have twisted look on that because of where i live. Brutal rape, lethal brain changes, woman's health, no exceptions... all those were recently questioned as a valid reason because of "no, all life is saint". It doesn't mean it is a unvalid assumption - but it means it will affect other's lifes no matter the woman/family wants, thinks is best for her/them. We shouldn't discuss doctrines but people exploiting them. Catholicism without people is nothing more than a set of rules and morals, a fairy tale of some sort (like any other religion). It does however involve people making valid points of what is good and what is evil which makes "The Bible" valuable and universal position.

Church on the other hand as a "spiritual guidance", "the temple of God" fails on the whole front... mostly feeds on: guilt motif, eternal damnation, promise of salvation to all who obey, fear of death, name it.
I wasn't accusing you of failing to save the world :smile: I thought it was obvious it was satire of what I consider a fallacy that whenever religious, but typically Christians argue for some moral convictons, they are held - as a counterargument - to incredibly high standards of personal conduct. As if they were not allowed to have convictions unless they are some sort of cartoonish saint who has never done any wrong. Consider how insane it sounds when you remove the religious language from the equation - "You think people should recycle? But you are a bit of an alcoholic. Ha, you're not perfect and flawless, therefore your argument is invalid." It is actually even more absurd when applied to Christianity, since it's explicitly based on the concept that all sin, so "accusing" a Christian of being a sinner is kind of making their point for them.
I got it but it was clearly pointing out hypocrisy - i admitted. I haven't said (or my intention was) that they cannot have convictions. They can, and should be able to speak freely about those (which you clearly pointing out they are persecuted for). I just see they do not accept any other point of view (to put it lightly) moreover would like to lay down the law for anybody as they see fit (which happened in Poland) and are so childish about "not well though" consequences (God wanted this, God will take care of it). And i am not saying they are the only ones doing it - those guys are just around, affecting anything i do and everywhere i look to be frank.

Come on, there is **** tons of Catholic charities and social work outfits. I'm a lapsed Catholic, I have all kinds of problems and reservations about the Church, but this anti-Catholic memery that everything that has a crucifix on the wall is a house of terror and abuse is just Hollywood bull****. I have long term and excellent experience with several hospices and institutions for mentally retarded that are run by nuns that are absolute top tier in the whole country. I'm not saying it's all peachy, but it's not all awful either. I'm not taking away your bad experience from you, and I am under no illusion that it was super rare and unique. But it's also not the entire Catholic experience.
So you want me to admit there are good people who tend to be catholics. Of course, i have no doubt about it. And i believe nobody will object with that. Catholicism in Poland has recently (or i was just blind before :unsure: ) evolved to some ultraconservative form that influences politics and therfore people's lifes - but even here there are good people who believe in Jesus. I don't believe one cannot be a good Christian / Catholic and remain silent to everything Church does - and this not necesarilly means he or she is a hypocrite.
 
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kurczak

Section Moderator
WB
.... but when someone's explicit reasons for a belief are clearly a facade, I don't see anything wrong with highlighting that.
True and agreeable.
Yeah, a lot of what's coming from the lady cop is motivated by mockery and advocating the devil. If you accept this, debating her becomes more stress-free.
Sounds like you're afraid of a strong and independent woman. I'm sorry, I'm doing it again :xf-grin:
Or you could turn the tables around and grill her about her fierce anti-communist views, because what did the communists ever do for us?
No dissonance there. I'm certain lots and lots of people have become communists in good faith and with fundamentally good intentions, especially before the world wars. On the doctrinal level, there's probably some parts not motivated by pure class hatred too :razz: It's not exactly the same though. Communism is a political ideology, so unlike with religion there is really no content other than power relations.

Regarding, communist governmental practice in Czech(oslovak)ia...eh, I guess the late 50s and 60s were not a total loss. I would be interested in some comparison between Marxist-run and Christian-run charities/social work NGOs. Might be my bias, but I think Christians would dominate in both money spent and volunteer hours.
I'll get to you later.
 

eddiemccandless

Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
Ladycopdcu0.jpg


(with heels because of course she has heels)
 

Nega-Brutus

Sergeant at Arms
It's probably more helpful to not look at Catholicism as some sort of vehicle for maximizing well-being, but instead recognize that people derive more intrinsic value from practising it. It gives people an understanding and meaning in life. That has enormous value in itself. People tend to not include that when they're talking about the merits and negatives.

It always sounds so arrogant, close-minded and short-sighted to somehow imply an abandonment of everything religious to me.
 
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Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
Religion is not just a personal issue - never has been - but are organisations with immense power.
Criticism of religion is separate from what people might say they gain from it.
Members of organised crime also have a network of friends there, but that doesn't mean you can't criticise the organisation (not that I'm comparing religion to organised crime, although the pervasive sexual abuse comes close).
People can get meaning of life from elsewhere.
 

Nega-Brutus

Sergeant at Arms

Religion is not just a personal issue - never has been - but are organisations with immense power.
Criticism of religion is separate from what people might say they gain from it.
Members of organised crime also have a network of friends there, but that doesn't mean you can't criticise the organisation (not that I'm comparing religion to organised crime, although the pervasive sexual abuse comes close).
Yeah, I don't disagree. It becomes a matter of disentangling the power structures from the personal practices. I personally thought your comment about the problem with religion being that it's rules-based hit the nail. It's the biggest obstacle to the disentanglement, as far as I can tell.

People can get meaning of life from elsewhere
This is kinda arrogant. Implying or telling someone who has been raised Catholic or Muslim -- and is super happy with his upbringings, and who just kinda lives his life -- to abandon the thing that has shaped him into who he is, is an incredibly existentially threatening thing. The usefulness in saying that is comparable to telling someone to just stop being so Spanish if they feel so discriminated in the Netherlands.

Every time we go through a cycle where there's a sudden abandonment of religion, we look for things to fill the vacuum, and more gross things like nationalism start to peak their heads. If you want to imply an abandonment of religion, you have to offer people viable alternatives.
 

Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
Atheism is viable.
You can't choose not to be Spanish (or however the example works), but you can choose to be religious.
I'm suggesting people stop supporting religions (as institutions), like you can be opposed to any other organisation or ideology.
There are many good, kind hearted Communists, but that doesn't change how terrible Communism is.

Saying it's arrogant of me to suggest people "abandon the thing that shaped [them]" is silly, since the world is filled with religious people who have devoted their lives to telling people to abandon what shaped them (what they believe in - i.e. convert to their religion!).
I'm telling people to convert away from religion, just like millions of people want others to convert to their own religion.

The difference is I'm not telling lies. I'm not saying there are gods, or angels, or miracles, or life after death.
I'm also not promoting hatred towards other people (like homosexuals), or making up nonsensical, unjust rules (like not masturbating, or not eating certain foods, or when or how to have sex, or when or how to pray; or misogynistic rules, like what positions women can take within religion, or how women should inherit less than men etc. etc.).
 

Nega-Brutus

Sergeant at Arms
Wdym, you can choose not to be Spanish. You can reject your heritage, nationality, learn a new language, forget Spanish, unlearn cultural quirks and mannerisms, etc. The example is to show that it's incredibly hard to ''just not be Spanish''. It's not helpful or valuable to claim or imply it. It's arguably more harmful even.

I'm not in favour of religion, and I acknowledge the harmful things caused in its name (but honestly the worst **** in history like WW2 was not religion-driven) or any justified grievances that you may have with it. But societies probably kinda secularize when they no longer need religions. You have to offer people the opportunities to move away from religion. People usually just look for purpose and direction in life. Atheism doesn't offer that. It's just not helpful or conducive to anything to delegitimize and strip people from their religion without offering them viable alternatives. You'll risk them finding new purpose in more harmful things.

You're projecting how easy it is/has been for you to reject religion, maybe. I think it comes from a place of privilege, frankly. Other people's experiences are not analogous to your own. I don't think people find meaning in religions because of angels, miracles or even because of life after death. It's just something to romanticize their existence. We're just sentimental monkes.
 

Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
Okay. I don't know what you meant with the "Spanish" example. I don't think it's relevant.
You can leave religion. People do it all the time. I never said it was easy. I'm just saying - with arguments - people should do it.

One wrong thing is not less wrong because more wrong things exist.
Religions can have harmful policies, and they are not less harmful because WWII happened.
I'm not arguing religions are the cause of all malice in the world.

I'm offering people something other than religion: not being religious. 'Meaning' is not patented by religions.
If people seek answers there are many other places to find it, such as philosophers (I realise the irony of many of them being religious :smile:.
I remember surveys about faith where many people answer they're not religious (or believe in God in the classical sense) but believe in other things that give meaning.
 

Nega-Brutus

Sergeant at Arms
I think we agree. Religion is kinda like philosophy, honestly. Anything that makes people reflect on themselves in the grand scheme of things probably works (minus the overpowered institutions).
 

Nodice83

Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
I think we agree. Religion is kinda like philosophy, honestly. Anything that makes people reflect on themselves in the grand scheme of things probably works (minus the overpowered institutions).
Religion and Faith are two separate things. Long story short: Faith is what makes you do great things and overcome really bad ones. Religions feed on Faith - humanity's primal need.
 
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