Taleworlds needs to hold themselves accountable and admit that many key decisions regarding multiplayer have backfired.

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Orion

Still Not Worthy
Global Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNW
This thread (until recently renamed) was literally demanding a TW employee be forcibly resigned. It was targeted and unnecessarily hostile (whether it was sarcastic or not) and that's what caused pages of arguments.
That's for us--moderators--to sort out, and the pages since Fietta's intervention have trended toward positive discussion so it seems like it was sorted out properly.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
That's for us--moderators--to sort out, and the pages since Fietta's intervention have trended toward positive discussion so it seems like it was sorted out properly.

Oh don't get me wrong Orion. Absolutely agree. Was just pointing out where the argument about that originated from. This has turned into an oddly positive thread... somehow...
 

Virthuss

Recruit
Remove Skirmish, its a budget TDM. Also remove class/gold system. It can only work once mods can actually balance the classes.

Classes can be kept for some competitive format. Maybe there could be BOTH class AND old school warband-like system.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Classes can be kept for some competitive format. Maybe there could be BOTH class AND old school warband-like system.
If TW are struggling to balance one system I don't want to see them attempt two at the same time :wink:

Honestly I think the best path forward is just to stick with the class system and make it work best they can. Even if that means just adding so many options to it that it might as well be Warband 2.0 anyway.

I wonder if each class has say 10 or 12 perks each (and lets say they were actually balanced) would people be able to accept the class system? Especially if some or most of those perks came with additional gold costs built in.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
I wonder if each class has say 10 or 12 perks each (and lets say they were actually balanced) would people be able to accept the class system? Especially if some or most of those perks came with additional gold costs built in.
They're not going to.
 

Virthuss

Recruit
If TW are struggling to balance one system I don't want to see them attempt two at the same time :wink:

Honestly I think the best path forward is just to stick with the class system and make it work best they can. Even if that means just adding so many options to it that it might as well be Warband 2.0 anyway.

I wonder if each class has say 10 or 12 perks each (and lets say they were actually balanced) would people be able to accept the class system? Especially if some or most of those perks came with additional gold costs built in.

I think the key is just adding more customization. I do love playing super-fast polearm infantry, so I did enjoy cRPG for this. Even Warband in the end provided three sets of skills ( foot / cav / archers ) and some weapons coming with.
But just as in early middle age armies were not so much uniformed, I hope the system will evolve. And I also wait for the mods :smile:
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
They're not going to.
How do you know?

Yes, and have multiple ways to play a single troop.

Sounds like there will certainly be more things coming; at the very least more perks. I could easily see either a 3rd perk slot of 5-6 perks in the current two options. Sounds like we are going to see stuff like shield options for shock troops and ranged options for melee troops. Perhaps even adding/removing mounts via perks. Could be interesting.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Because they said it would only be 3 perk slots.

I didn't see that confirmation; assuming it's true (which I am sure it is) then that sounds like good news! 3 perk slots is probably a minimum of 9 per class - with room for more.

Assuming the worst though and it's just 9 perks. That's still 27 ways to play a class. 7 Classes - 189 ways to play each faction. Not bad. Obviously technically warband had much much more - but that's assuming you count minor considerations like do I take leather gloves or not as a real choice with consequence. Sure there was lot's of impactful choices in Warband but I don't believe it is as many as people will sometimes argue.

I mean surely you can agree that sounds like a step in the right direction (ignoring the 'they should just remove it and start again' arguement for a second)?
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
I didn't see that confirmation; assuming it's true (which I am sure it is) then that sounds like good news! 3 perk slots is probably a minimum of 9 per class - with room for more.

Assuming the worst though and it's just 9 perks. That's still 27 ways to play a class. 7 Classes - 189 ways to play each faction. Not bad. Obviously technically warband had much much more - but that's assuming you count minor considerations like do I take leather gloves or not as a real choice with consequence.

I mean surely you can agree that sounds like a step in the right direction (ignoring the 'they should just remove it and start again' arguement for a second)?
Not really no.

They're hinting passive perks that are not visible to the naked eye (Passive generation, Improved bashing, Fighting madness, Veteran,..)


Which goes against their argument of making it visible what an opposite enemy has in advantages and disadvantages.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Not really no.

They're hinting passive perks that are not visible to the naked eye (Passive generation, Improved bashing, Fighting madness, Veteran,..)


Which goes against their argument of making it visible what an opposite enemy has in advantages and disadvantages.

Do we care about that argument though? Like I'd actually like to see a few perks like these added within reason - M&B SP is using them already so it seems feasible MP could use them as well. Sure it sounds like they have dropped that particular aspect - but whatever.

A small passive HP regen might actually be very interesting and a perk that allows damaging shield bashes could open up a new playstyle.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
Do we care about that argument though? Like I'd actually like to see a few perks like these added within reason - M&B SP is using them already so it seems feasible MP could use them as well. Sure it sounds like they have dropped that particular aspect - but whatever.
Yes we do, because if you intend on dissatisfying a major part of your multiplayer playerbase with such arguments, you should at least stay true to them.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Yes we do, because if you intend on dissatisfying a major part of your multiplayer playerbase with such arguments, you should at least stay true to them.
But... you don't like the class system and you don't like this arguement?

Surely the only reason they would stray from it is to try and please you guys? Like if they just up and removed the class system - that would also break from their assigned goals. If we want to see improvements; they will have to bend or break some of their previous goals.

Like if you liked the system as it currently stands - i can see why you would want them to stay true; but surely them deviating is exactly what you want?

Also another point of contention I have here. Warband HAD a class system; just it only had three classes but with lots of 'perks' effectively. If bannerlords class system gets more and more perks; it moves closer and closer to Warband...

If bannerlord got to a stage where you had say 5 perks per slot across 3 perk slots - that's 125 ways to play each class. 875 ways to play each faction.... I challenge you to find 875 ways to play Nords which are actually viably distinct (no your sword gaining +1 damage or your helmet gaining +1 armour does not count as a new way to play the class).
 
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Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
But... you don't like the class system and you don't like this arguement?

Surely they only reason they would stray from it is to try and please you guys? Like if they just up and removed the class system - that would also break from their assigned goals. If we want to see improvements; they will have to bend or break some of their previous goals.
I disagree with their points, i reject the argument. But if you just neglect the argument that was supposed to be used to replace the caring system a lot of us loved so much, then you are just giving off the message that you actually put 0 thought behind the system and are confirming what a lot of people have been saying for ages. That you didn't put any thought behind it. You just did a 10 minute notepad file and wrote down the arguments, instead of making us feel like you actually put months of thought behind it. I'm saying this for TW sake, not mine.

Also this has been talked about a lot during beta, people have been trying to find compromises with a mix between mordhau to still give the full customization in the armory, or just two systems as a whole. But no matter how slight the deviation is from the original design, taleworlds is not changing their mind. Whoever has been designing the MP has an echo chamber somewhere.

From what i have seen, people who i have argued a lot about during the beta and said the class system just need a small rework, and actually put forth a thread that was potentially going to significantly improved the current class system were never implemented.

One of those significant examples that even you wrote in, was the class rework from AoC where even callum replied


But nothing EVER comes out of it, this is what you don't seem to understand Axios, TW isn't going to change anything to the class system.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
But nothing EVER comes out of it, this is what you don't seem to understand Axios, TW isn't going to change anything to the class system.

This I disagree on though _ I think they are making some fairly big changes under the hood and we just haven't see them yet. For example before the BETA ended there was a lot of discussion about revamping Vlandia's cosmetics; we know they are working on this but again we haven't seen it yet.

In my mind there is actually a lot of stuff they have ready and waiting; they are just going to push it as one release, and by the sounds of it v1.5 is going to be that release.

I'm not saying its going to be a total revolution; but we are gonna see the start of cosmetics being applied, lots of perks are gonna change and we might see that 3rd perk slot. A lot is going to happen and I think the arguements are going to be very different going forwards.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
This I disagree on though _ I think they are making some fairly big changes under the hood and we just haven't see them yet. For example before the BETA ended there was a lot of discussion about revamping Vlandia's cosmetics; we know they are working on this but again we haven't seen it yet.

In my mind there is actually a lot of stuff they have ready and waiting; they are just going to push it as one release, and by the sounds of it v1.5 is going to be that release.

I'm not saying its going to be a total revolution; but we are gonna see the start of cosmetics being applied, lots of perks are gonna change and we might see that 3rd perk slot. A lot is going to happen and I think the arguements are going to be very different going forwards.
Or they're just refactoring a lot of the code and thus why its taking so long
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Or they're just refactoring a lot of the code and thus why its taking so long
*Shrug* Lets see. Either way they are going to make the current iteration of the class system much larger.Will be interesting to see how this compares once we know the full extent of it.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
*Shrug* Lets see. Either way they are going to make the current iteration of the class system much larger.Will be interesting to see how this compares once we know the full extent of it.
Never have high expectations and you will never be disappointed
 
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