Taleworlds needs to hold themselves accountable and admit that many key decisions regarding multiplayer have backfired.

[HancockT35]

You make good points except about picking up weapons and horses.

There is no class balance to break by picking up weapons or horses. The “classes” are literally arbitrary. They’re copypastes from sp. Almost nothing stops someone from respawning as whatever “class” they want.

Blocking people off from available equipment for “game balance” reasons would be a gigantic step backwards. I really don’t understand why that is the hill you choose to die on when there are many other things that desperately need correcting.

If someone wants to get a horse or a bow and it’s so op then why wouldn’t you want to be able to use it after beating them with your weaker “class”? If they’re so op why are they dying and dropping said items

Picking a weapon and risking losing it to the other side is an aspect of the game which gives it dynamism and any encouragement to effectively further double down on “classes” by locking equipment is half-baked at best and moronic at worst.

Did you figure out a specific flavor of cheese that gets defeated by archers and cav or something? Granted melee fighting needs real adjustment but calling for a nerf hammer so big it destroys cav, archers, and gets a dev fired isn’t going to make the game less annoying than it is.

I disagree on everything except the dev being fired I think that was more for a boom. Cav and Archers atm are leagues above inf if they got hit by a sledge hammer they would become even with inf so i disagree with you on that. The whole point and argument is both on a balance and artistic view if your an archer you feel like your job is to shoot and kill people with bows its simple everyone gets that but when anyone is able to shoot a bow it almost defeats the purpose of your class the only difference between you and that inf is the fact you spawned with a bow and he didn't as dumb as its to say "Just make it historical" it feels really weird and bad seeing that and maybe you just don't know this because of your anger issues. But it also creates balance and design issues that cause core fundamentals to break for the game for example It makes sense why khuzait has horse archer it creates a interesting dynamic between it and the khans guard where you have essentially at its core a weaker class but it has the bonus of mobility. But when that horse archer dismounts at the beginning of the round and the khuzait guard gets on the horse it destroys the weakness's that are meant to exist with horse archery. And this logic can be applied to anything Cav for the most part have a pretty weak shield you look at any cav class and you see how bad their shield is compared to inf its meant to be that way on purpose so when that Vlandian Xbow drops a riot shield for the cav it breaks the balance and dynamic on how Vlandian knight is meant to play.

 

[rektasaurus]

I disagree on everything except the dev being fired I think that was more for a boom. Cav and Archers atm are leagues above inf if they got hit by a sledge hammer they would become even with inf so i disagree with you on that. The whole point and argument is both on a balance and artistic view if your an archer you feel like your job is to shoot and kill people with bows its simple everyone gets that but when anyone is able to shoot a bow it almost defeats the purpose of your class the only difference between you and that inf is the fact you spawned with a bow and he didn't as dumb as its to say "Just make it historical" it feels really weird and bad seeing that and maybe you just don't know this because of your anger issues. But it also creates balance and design issues that cause core fundamentals to break for the game for example It makes sense why khuzait has horse archer it creates a interesting dynamic between it and the khans guard where you have essentially at its core a weaker class but it has the bonus of mobility. But when that horse archer dismounts at the beginning of the round and the khuzait guard gets on the horse it destroys the weakness's that are meant to exist with horse archery. And this logic can be applied to anything Cav for the most part have a pretty weak shield you look at any cav class and you see how bad their shield is compared to inf its meant to be that way on purpose so when that Vlandian Xbow drops a riot shield for the cav it breaks the balance and dynamic on how Vlandian knight is meant to play.

Like I said many posts ago, I think if mp lets us choose our equipment and gets the fighting and movement right, loadouts will largely mirror what made sense irl.

Deciding on gamey fixes like locking equipment for issues like “class” balance is bad game design. Nerfing is typically a very short term bandaid for bigger underlying issues, and nerfing the engine by making it impossible to pick up items is just... it’s shocking to me that it can be thought that would solve anything.

It will be “yeah, we used to be able to pick up javelins after they were thrown but idk I guess people were bothered by peasants riding horses”.

The smaller cav shields, among many other things, is just a symptom of poorly implemented classes.

I think some factions getting couchable lances and others not is a gaping balance issue that is more pressing than undodgeable and unblockable point blank missiles.

Not letting a peasant with a bow get on a horse seems more fit for a bad rp mod than any mp balance consideration come on.

“I shalt not touch the brigand’s bow nor shall I mount the fallen lord’s steed, for that is not the station of my lineage.”

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

Blocking people off from available equipment for “game balance” reasons would be a gigantic step backwards. I really don’t understand why that is the hill you choose to die on when there are many other things that desperately need correcting.

It completely DESTROYS skirmish mode. If you dont play skirmish then you wont notice how much of a problem it is. If you dont care about balance then quite frankly an opinion you have about a gamemode that is designed to be balanced is pretty invalid.

 

[Zoonanay]

Like I said many posts ago, I think if mp lets us choose our equipment and gets the fighting and movement right, loadouts will largely mirror what made sense irl.

Deciding on gamey fixes like locking equipment for issues like “class” balance is bad game design. Nerfing is typically a very short term bandaid for bigger underlying issues, and nerfing the engine by making it impossible to pick up items is just... it’s shocking to me that it can be thought that would solve anything.

It will be “yeah, we used to be able to pick up javelins after they were thrown but idk I guess people were bothered by peasants riding horses”.

The smaller cav shields, among many other things, is just a symptom of poorly implemented classes.

I think some factions getting couchable lances and others not is a gaping balance issue that is more pressing than undodgeable and unblockable point blank missiles.

Not letting a peasant with a bow get on a horse seems more fit for a bad rp mod than any mp balance consideration come on.

I don't think anyone wants javelins to be denied to any class.

Smaller cav shields is a good example of why picking up items on the field can ruin balance. If say a Vlandian Sergeant finds a heavy horse, they've got the advantage of the long shield to cover them as well as the 46 body armour. This is an argueably better setup than a Khuzait Lancer's small shield and lower armour value.

The problem arises when that Sergeant might've just spawned, and encountered that horse, they took no part necessarily in helping their team kill it. Worse yet, an enemy team member could do the same just after you spent so long defeating it once. If someone picks the class, at least they had the associated cost or dedicated themselves to it.

In Warband having good equipment meant you'd played well individually and/or as a team, it was a reward. In this design, players can be left being killed by someone on a heavy horse they did not buy, nor even kill the rider of, but are now destroying you with. It feels like a lack of agency on the destroyed players behalf, there was nothing he could do about their team mate losing the item or the enemy team recovering their lost asset despite already killing it once. This lack of agency is the complete opposite reason to why people loved Warband's MP.

For the cost of 90 a rabble can pick up a Lance, find a heavy horse, and effectively become a lightly body armoured Lancer for almost half the cost. I don't see this as balanced, especially if the individual may have had no part in getting these items other than clicking F on the ground. I am intrigued if you know of a system that could allow for this, or a reason why this design may work?

 

[HancockT35]

Like I said many posts ago, I think if mp lets us choose our equipment and gets the fighting and movement right, loadouts will largely mirror what made sense irl.

Deciding on gamey fixes like locking equipment for issues like “class” balance is bad game design. Nerfing is typically a very short term bandaid for bigger underlying issues, and nerfing the engine by making it impossible to pick up items is just... it’s shocking to me that it can be thought that would solve anything.

It will be “yeah, we used to be able to pick up javelins after they were thrown but idk I guess people were bothered by peasants riding horses”.

The smaller cav shields, among many other things, is just a symptom of poorly implemented classes.

I think some factions getting couchable lances and others not is a gaping balance issue that is more pressing than undodgeable and unblockable point blank missiles.

Not letting a peasant with a bow get on a horse seems more fit for a bad rp mod than any mp balance consideration come on.

“I shalt not touch the brigand’s bow nor shall I mount the fallen lord’s steed, for that is not the station of my lineage.”

Read my post again its not for RP reasons and i explain why its bad design to allow picking up items and etc

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

The problem arises when that Sergeant might've just spawned, and encountered that horse, they took no part necessarily in helping their team kill it. Worse yet, an enemy team member could do the same just after you spent so long defeating it once. If someone picks the class, at least they had the associated cost or dedicated themselves to it.

The current DoF strategy is to give Beeflip a horse right at the start of the round as as a Fiann.

He becomes a unit with

• 40+ Armor
• The Highest damage bow in the game, with almost 0 loss to horse archery accuracy.
• A two handed sword that has plenty of reach to melee from horseback.
• A battanian Horse with the second fastest speed in the game.

The gear swap happens right at the start of the round, before the opposing team has any feasible chance of doing anything about it. The downside to this swap? Basically having a wildling with 5 less movement speed than a regular wildling.


If this is balance that the devs see as perfectly fine quite frankly myself and a lot of people want nothing to do with the game.

 

[sleepy dragon]

The current DoF strategy is to give Beeflip a horse right at the start of the round as as a Fiann.

He becomes a unit with

• 40+ Armor
• The Highest damage bow in the game, with almost 0 loss to horse archery accuracy.
• A two handed sword that has plenty of reach to melee from horseback.
• A battanian Horse with the second fastest speed in the game.

The gear swap happens right at the start of the round, before the opposing team has any feasible chance of doing anything about it. The downside to this swap? Basically having a wildling with 5 less movement speed than a regular wildling.


If this is balance that the devs see as perfectly fine quite frankly myself and a lot of people want nothing to do with the game.

A unit having no weaknesses, I see nothing wrong with this.

 

[rektasaurus]

Mp economy is definitely bad. It forces us to learn and play a system which is really dumb.

A simple solution would be that equipment and armor costs money instead of 7 different classes, which are slightly different for each faction. Idk I think then picking up objects won’t make much of a difference.

You’re right, dismounted cav are a liability, even if it’s possible to game the mech to get an even bigger advantage, I think it’s a mechanic that is enriching enough to the gameplay that it really deserves staying in.

I like seeing footage where someone picks something up and continues wrecking and wouldn’t mind it at all if they get on a horse after spawning in as “infantry” or “archer”. Riding a horse has its own disadvantages.

Are we playing the same game?

 

[Zoonanay]

The current DoF strategy is to give Beeflip a horse right at the start of the round as as a Fiann.

He becomes a unit with

• 40+ Armor
• The Highest damage bow in the game, with almost 0 loss to horse archery accuracy.
• A two handed sword that has plenty of reach to melee from horseback.
• A battanian Horse with the second fastest speed in the game.

The gear swap happens right at the start of the round, before the opposing team has any feasible chance of doing anything about it. The downside to this swap? Basically having a wildling with 5 less movement speed than a regular wildling.


If this is balance that the devs see as perfectly fine quite frankly myself and a lot of people want nothing to do with the game.

Indeed an effective strategy, and when swapped from the beginning the opposing team can do nothing to stop it, an even worse scenario. And I struggle to see any in-game system to stop willing players from doing this.

In Warband gear swaps were the norm in competitive play, but at least there were specifically designed limits on certain weapons and classes to stop complete abuse.

If slight adjustments were to be made in the use of bows as an infantry, there could be potential to gradually adjust stats and class skills to balance this.

But outright allowing any unit to use anything and using skills to balance all of it from there, is just going to lead to inbalance and poor gameplay, people are too rigourous to just use it for your intended purpose TW and there are far too many potential combinations and strategies to allow for, especially at this rather gradual
development pace.

Mp economy is definitely bad. It forces us to learn and play a system which is really dumb.

A simple solution would be that equipment and armor costs money instead of 7 different classes, which are slightly different for each faction. Idk I think then picking up objects won’t make much of a difference.

You’re right, dismounted cav are a liability, even if it’s possible to game the mech to get an even bigger advantage, I think it’s a mechanic that is enriching enough to the gameplay that it really deserves staying in.

I like seeing footage where someone picks something up and continues wrecking and wouldn’t mind it at all if they get on a horse after spawning in as “infantry” or “archer”. Riding a horse has its own disadvantages.

Are we playing the same game?

I think we're all agreed an equipment based system would be better, but the one thing TW has been really steadfast about is this class system we are now in. And until release comes and mods flourish, it is the system we're stuck with.

Riding a horse has almost no disadvantages to my eyes. You're faster, you're harder to hit, your attacks are more likely to be at head level whilst enemies are at your legs, you can bump people, you can jump over people.

Being targetted by everyone because your class is overpowered is not an disadvantage in my eyes, its example of inbalance, and the only possible disadvantage I can think of. But I'm always ready to reconsider.

And I can agree that picking up weapons as you go is enjoyable, it feels fluid and it's why I loved playing SuperHot, but balance is a critical factor as well.

 

[method man]

I think the system of picking up weapons (and wielding them perfectly) causes the game's logic to be back-to-front. On the one hand, you have no agency where it'd make sense to (choosing your gear etc.). You are shoehorned into starting with gear and stats which you can't tailor to your playstyle. Then, the game gives you limitless freedom when it comes to appropriating equipment. This makes the class system feel like you're just picking an outfit, armour value, and speed value. After all, if the peasant can ride a horse and shoot a crossbow almost as well as classes specializing in it, what is unique about him besides the outfit and those two stats? It renders your initial choices basically meaningless.

 

[rektasaurus]

Read my post again its not for RP reasons and i explain why its bad design to allow picking up items and etc

Check your privilege, HancockT35, my fellow good sir. Please reread my post without assuming it’s written with any hostility towards you. Imagine puppies and rainbows.

To me it seems more fitting in a bad rp mod

 

[CdJrcxx]

Like I said many posts ago, I think if mp lets us choose our equipment and gets the fighting and movement right, loadouts will largely mirror what made sense irl.

Deciding on gamey fixes like locking equipment for issues like “class” balance is bad game design. Nerfing is typically a very short term bandaid for bigger underlying issues, and nerfing the engine by making it impossible to pick up items is just... it’s shocking to me that it can be thought that would solve anything.

It will be “yeah, we used to be able to pick up javelins after they were thrown but idk I guess people were bothered by peasants riding horses”.

The smaller cav shields, among many other things, is just a symptom of poorly implemented classes.

I think some factions getting couchable lances and others not is a gaping balance issue that is more pressing than undodgeable and unblockable point blank missiles.

Not letting a peasant with a bow get on a horse seems more fit for a bad rp mod than any mp balance consideration come on.

“I shalt not touch the brigand’s bow nor shall I mount the fallen lord’s steed, for that is not the station of my lineage.”

Pretty sure most people are hoping for a system more similar to WBs where you could pick things up (except bows for infantry and cavalry and throwing for archers). Don't believe anyone is arguing that it should be IMPOSSIBLE for any class to pick up any item, of course they should be worse with whatever they get if it's not befitting their class. There are MANY fundamental reasons for this such as things like classes should have weaknesses if they have many strengths.

Don't know how comparing that idea to an RP mod makes any sense, I don't even need to pull out the big book of ACTUAL reasons to shut that comment down so instead I'll just say this. If a Peasant brandishing his lordships longbow skillfully rides up to me full speed on a warhorse that required YEARS OF TRAINING to master and shoots me to pieces for the discount price of 90-100 gold you're damn right I'm screaming nerf. It gets worse when if you do manage to kill the notoriously tanky BL horse, the peasant simply wields his lordships sword and shield with the same speed and skill of their former user except NOW they have MORE MOVEMENT SPEED. Perhaps at lower levels of play the lack of armor would be enough of a balance but most skilled players will easily be able to survive with a shield unless they plunge themselves directly into the middle of 3 people.

 

[rektasaurus]

I think the system of picking up weapons causes the game's logic to be back-to-front. On the one hand, you have no agency where it'd make sense to (choosing your gear etc.). You are shoehorned into starting with gear and stats which you can't tailor to your playstyle. Then, the game gives you limitless freedom when it comes to appropriating equipment. This makes the class system feel like you're just picking an outfit, armour value, and speed value. After all, if the peasant can ride a horse and shoot a crossbow almost as well as classes specializing in it, what is unique about him besides the outfit and stats? It renders your initial choices basically meaningless.

You’re right. That’s exactly why the class system is not good. The choices are meaningless. Why wouldn’t you pick the fastest and best armored unit you can? Why is this even a choice we have to make or a discussion we have to have in order to play team based mp? Why not just do away with the class system and put into it something that more closely resembles competitive fps games? Game design systems that might make sense for moba or rts games don’t necessarily work for what Bannerlord is and that’s where the current class system feels like belongs. This is twitch based skill game.

 

[rektasaurus]

Pretty sure most people are hoping for a system more similar to WBs where you could pick things up (except bows for infantry and cavalry and throwing for archers). Don't believe anyone is arguing that it should be IMPOSSIBLE for any class to pick up any item, of course they should be worse with whatever they get if it's not befitting their class. There are MANY fundamental reasons for this such as things like classes should have weaknesses if they have many strengths.

Don't know how comparing that idea to an RP mod makes any sense, I don't even need to pull out the big book of ACTUAL reasons to shut that comment down so instead I'll just say this. If a Peasant brandishing his lordships longbow skillfully rides up to me full speed on a warhorse that required YEARS OF TRAINING to master and shoots me to pieces for the discount price of 90-100 gold you're damn right I'm screaming nerf. It gets worse when if you do manage to kill the notoriously tanky BL horse, the peasant simply wields his lordships sword and shield with the same speed and skill of their former user except NOW they have MORE MOVEMENT SPEED. Perhaps at lower levels of play the lack of armor would be enough of a balance but most skilled players will easily be able to survive with a shield unless they plunge themselves directly into the middle of 3 people.

It’s rp cause the rage that the player picked a peasant and chose not to spawn in as his lordship and still wrecked you. I jest it’s in good faith.

I would absolutely LOVE to see mp with NO armor for everyone actually. That would be dope. Then we can wait for them to implement armor and be excited about that. Instead of bickering about the fantasy classes someone thought up. Oh sigh

Indeed an effective strategy, and when swapped from the beginning the opposing team can do nothing to stop it, an even worse scenario. And I struggle to see any in-game system to stop willing players from doing this.

In Warband gear swaps were the norm in competitive play, but at least there were specifically designed limits on certain weapons and classes to stop complete abuse.

If slight adjustments were to be made in the use of bows as an infantry, there could be potential to gradually adjust stats and class skills to balance this.

But outright allowing any unit to use anything and using skills to balance all of it from there, is just going to lead to inbalance and poor gameplay, people are too rigourous to just use it for your intended purpose TW and there are far too many potential combinations and strategies to allow for, especially at this rather gradual
development pace.



I think we're all agreed an equipment based system would be better, but the one thing TW has been really steadfast about is this class system we are now in. And until release comes and mods flourish, it is the system we're stuck with.

Riding a horse has almost no disadvantages to my eyes. You're faster, you're harder to hit, your attacks are more likely to be at head level whilst enemies are at your legs, you can bump people, you can jump over people.

Being targetted by everyone because your class is overpowered is not an disadvantage in my eyes, its example of inbalance, and the only possible disadvantage I can think of. But I'm always ready to reconsider.

And I can agree that picking up weapons as you go is enjoyable, it feels fluid and it's why I loved playing SuperHot, but balance is a critical factor as well.

Balance is for sure a critical factor if vanilla is going to have any competitive legs to stand on.

Horses are pretty dope ngl. They can basically trample you to death haha. But I don’t think locking a horse to a player or even just having it run away right away is a good answer. If an enemy makes an investment into a pricey high-end item, their losing it should be a boon to our team. Making that impossible is just so the wrong answer.

I can actually get behind Ebdanian in asking for some accountability from the devs on this. There are many obvious and simpler design choices that would’ve made mp much better. Why weren’t they considered and implemented a long time ago? Like at inception...

Basically if the community is in agreement that an equipment based system is better, why are the devs steadfast against this?

 

[Brandis.]

I don't find classes enjoyable, but they come after the core combat system. At least they're serviceable to test the game.

You can have all the different color icing and decorations, but if the core of the game is unfun, nothing else matters.

 

[rektasaurus]

I don't find classes enjoyable, but they come after the core combat system. At least they're serviceable to test the game.

You can have all the different color icing and decorations, but if the core of the game is unfun, nothing else matters.

Super fair.

 

[RCC_God]

I don't find classes enjoyable, but they come after the core combat system. At least they're serviceable to test the game.

You can have all the different color icing and decorations, but if the core of the game is unfun, nothing else matters.

Combat is the singular most important thing. +1

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

Are we playing the same game?

Were not. Im hoping for a competitive, balanced experience and you are hoping for a very open ended free for all where anything goes. Warband managed to appease both crowds where as Bannerlord does not.

 

[Zoonanay]

Balance is for sure a critical factor if vanilla is going to have any competitive legs to stand on.

Horses are pretty dope ngl. They can basically trample you to death haha. But I don’t think locking a horse to a player or even just having it run away right away is a good answer. If an enemy makes an investment into a pricey high-end item, their losing it should be a boon to our team. Making that impossible is just so the wrong answer.

I can actually get behind Ebdanian in asking for some accountability from the devs on this. There are many obvious and simpler design choices that would’ve made mp much better. Why weren’t they considered and implemented a long time ago? Like at inception...

Basically if the community is in agreement that an equipment based system is better, why are the devs steadfast against this?

TW have said they believe a class system is easier for newer players to come to terms with than a equipment economy system. Most of the community has disagreed, and we are not sure why TW believe otherwise. It is rather unfortunate, perhaps the popularity of NW with its class based system convinced them that it is one of the determining reasons why NW was so popular? It's hard to say.

The boon of killing an expensive unit is usually expending your opponents resources and recieving some form of monetary reward for doing so. If you're a cavalry class, and your horse has been killed, then recovering the enemies horse is a conditional bonus.

But as previously stated, once a non-cavalry class can get access to high-end cavalry units then their specialization becomes rather redundant other than the fact they spawn in with one. It effectively reduces the game to luck on whether you happen to grab the horse before the enemy does, or that whoever on your team grabbed it is capable enough to fully capitalize on it and not immediatley give it back to the opponents.

A skilled player whose cavalry class and can get back on a horse is a terrifying enough prospect.

A skilled player whose any class and can get on a horse is a recipe for snowball and abuse.

I don't see a way around this dynamic, nor do I think its a particularly enjoyable nor a necessarily competitive dynamic. I think it could lead to some fun moments, but on the whole, I don't see how you could possibly balance every item to be used by any potential class, it'll be an endless task which is the last thing I would like TW to be doing right now.

 

[rektasaurus]

you are hoping for a very open ended free for all where anything goes

no. 1v1 me scrub. wait no we can't cause no private servers. also you might cry if i take your horse after i kill you.

TW have said they believe a class system is easier for newer players to come to terms with than a equipment economy system. Most of the community has disagreed, and we are not sure why TW believe otherwise. It is rather unfortunate, perhaps the popularity of NW with its class based system convinced them that it is one of the determining reasons why NW was so popular? It's hard to say.

The boon of killing an expensive unit is usually expending your opponents resources and recieving some form of monetary reward for doing so. If you're a cavalry class, and your horse has been killed, then recovering the enemies horse is a conditional bonus.

But as previously stated, once a non-cavalry class can get access to high-end cavalry units then their specialization becomes rather redundant other than the fact they spawn in with one. It effectively reduces the game to luck on whether you happen to grab the horse before the enemy does, or that whoever on your team grabbed it is capable enough to fully capitalize on it and not immediatley give it back to the opponents.

A skilled player whose cavalry class and can get back on a horse is a terrifying enough prospect.

A skilled player whose any class and can get on a horse is a recipe for snowball and abuse.

I don't see a way around this dynamic, nor do I think its a particularly enjoyable nor a necessarily competitive dynamic. I think it could lead to some fun moments, but on the whole, I don't see how you could possibly balance every item to be used by any potential class, it'll be an endless task which is the last thing I would like TW to be doing right now.

Maybe they read the forums and think that people who play this game are legitimately stupid. The fact you're even complaining about that. I've made it my absolute mission to play only rabble. rabble rabble. Come join me then let's see what your complaints about "infantry fighting" and the "class system" will be.

A skilled player > you for sure. If a peasant, the cheapest, worst armored class, can demount an armored knight, that peasant deserves that horse. Full stop.

The fact that you can think otherwise as being "good" for balance is so beyond me. Do you play mp or just theorycraft?

A way around the dynamic is to take the class system out. So that it's balanced. Never have a felt the need to call someone a noob so strongly as now lol. With the most kindness.

Also, to a comment earlier, the disadvantage of cav is that they're loud. You can't get behind anyone without them noticing unless you're playing captain and are in a big fight. They're cumbersome, they turn SUPER slow compared to foot. In tight spaces it's a real challenge to keep up with foot. It's easy to get dehorsed, even by archers. There was some dude earlier complaining that people didn't stay down long enough after getting knocked off their horse. Clearly this dude has never been knocked off a horse in melee before. In a way I can understand why tw might be hesitant to take advice from forum posters.