TaleWorlds Forum Modding Contest [June 2018][Scripting]

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EmielRegis

Sergeant Knight at Arms
You need to learn WSE, you need to adjust your modsys to WSE, you need to force players to install WSE. It seriously hinders universality.
To mod, you need to learn mod. Its not fair to people that cant mod. Better close contest cause its not fair to them.
 

Leonion

Master Knight
EmielRegis? said:
To mod, you need to learn mod. Its not fair to people that cant mod. Better close contest cause its not fair to them.
This is a ridiculous argument.

And, btw, It's quite common for contests to require using only some default set of materials, forbidding all sorts of 3rd party improvements.
Like when you come to a math contest, you're only allowed a blank sheet of paper and a pen, not calculator, not your personal computer, not your dad, a professor of mathematics.

P.S. In case I didn't phrase it clearly: my first argument (universality) was not about equal conditions for participants, but about practical use (since all these contests clearly have a practical goal - to stimulate bored modders' minds to create some new and cool OSPs, and since WSE is only used by very few modders, its practical use is very limited and it's hard to estimate WSE-based code for its OSP value).
But equal conditions matter too. If you compare your suggestion (to allow WSE) to a math contest, it's like saying 'The participants can either choose an easier test but will only be allowed to use a pen, or a more difficult test, but in this case they will be allowed to use the Internet.' (WSE is harder to learn, but its additional operations make things easier to implement.). You can't properly compare participants' knowledge of math in such conditions.
 

Lumos

Archduke
WBWF&SNWM&BVC
Leonion is quite correct. Whilst I personally recognise the substantial usefulness of WSE and a lot of the other "outlawed" items, the contest strives to provide an even playing field for all submissions, both in terms of scoring, and in terms of usability: since all submissions are scored against each other, it'd be unwise to allow some to essentially gain the upper hand by virtue of an extra function library. Conversely, forcing all submissions to use WSE would be absurd. As for usability, we'd prefer all submissions to be applicable to the widest and most general of "audiences" as possible.

Note that at present, like with the other contests, we're looking to establish a reasonable basis of rules for this contest. Perhaps in the future WSE use will be allowed or encouraged, but that would not be now.


Great features have been created long before WSE existed. I don't see how disallowing its use "kills" anything.
 

K700

Knight at Arms
WB
The competition will kill a small number of participants. Judging by all, two it already lost. I have no desire to participate in a competition that limits my ability.
 

Duh

Duke
M&BWB
It is unfortunate to see this sort of conduct - misquoting moderators, hostile hyperbole and more or less direct threats of boycott - in the forge... and this topic in particular.

This is a project that is being pursued for the community and with the community. It has great potential... but it is only taking its first steps and is accordingly vulnerable. And yet you act like this, because this one contest slightly deviates from your ideal? Rather than constructively arguing for another format and/or seeking to become a judge (which determine theme and rules) on the next contest, you bring conflict and hostility into a setting that could benefit everyone? I don't understand that. Even if not using WSE this time takes you out of your comfort zone, you should be able to see the bigger picture. Even small and simple contests will serve to build a foundation for larger and more complex ones - if they are succesful and people interact professionally. More folks will participate if they see the positive activity. Similarly, TW or someone else may take notice and support us - assuming that these topics do NOT devolve into bickering, baiting and flaming. Tbh we don't need the very best submissions right now... we simply need submissions. To get things going. And that is in everyone's interest... even if WSE is not in the format. It spurs interaction between modders, it generates some activity and interest, it creates new OSP assets and it builds a foundation for Bannerlord.


Edith: One thing we could consider for the next scripting context is permitting WSE but taking it into account for Ease of Installation/Customization/OSP Value. That would mean that a native script that achieves the same as a WSE script would likely score higher. This would also serve to somewhat balance the increased utility of WSE (though not make it worthless for someone able to effectively utilize it). I don't think this can be specified precisely, but Judges could take it as a general guideline.
 
K700 said:
The competition will kill a small number of participants. Judging by all, two it already lost. I have no desire to participate in a competition that limits my ability.

I think we all expected a more initiative attitude. It is already set on stone for this contest, If it turns out to be an issue anyhow, I am sure judges will and can reconsider it for next contests at this point. And, since WSE is not required for modding - you can just join anyway - since there are LOTS of stuff noone has ever done and can be done without WSE.
 

Duh

Duke
M&BWB
Tüfekçi Başı said:
I'm sorry my English is not so good, beside not so bad. :smile:

I want to join this contest. Do I have to make my work osp?
Yes. All submissions are released as OSP.
 

DerGreif

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBVC
I have to fully agree with the judges here. Your work on WSE, @K700, is highly appreciated and there is no doubt, that if someone is willing to use WSE, they can do great things with it. But I have only played mods without WSE and have not used WSE myself for modding, because
a) I am a self-taught programmer and have difficulties understanding WSE and
b) I want to have the widest possible user base for my mod.

Right now I am pondering whether or not I will enter this contest. My biggest problem is the theme. I have quite a few ideas of stuff I want to script outside of combat, but in combat there is already a large amount of useful OSP scripts and code snippets around. Still, I have a smaller and a really huge idea in mind. but the huge idea might be too huge to finish in time, the small idea is not that useful. Oh well, I mull it over a couple of days longer planning and designing.
 

Tüfekçi Başı

Grandmaster Knight
WF&SWBNW
Can I ask their ideas to other people about combat features? Because creativity does not come everytime you want.

Can I use some "fantastic" features? Like magic etc.
 

_Sebastian_

Punkbuster 2.0
Baron
NWWBVC
Tüfekçi Başı said:
Can I ask their ideas to other people about combat features? Because creativity does not come everytime you want.

Can I use some "fantastic" features? Like magic etc.
Sure...
Aslong as it is a combat themed feature, you're free to do all crazy stuff that comes to your mind.
 

Leonion

Master Knight
The problem with magic or fantastic futuristic features is that only very few mods use magic or the like.
So the OSP value of such features is very small.

I had one in mind, but I wouldn't even be able to use it in Perisno (the mod I work on) because it would still make no sense even in a low-fantasy mod with dragons.
 
Leonion said:
The problem with magic or fantastic futuristic features is that only very few mods use magic or the like.
So the OSP value of such features is very small.

I had one in mind, but I wouldn't even be able to use it in Perisno (the mod I work on) because it would still make no sense even in a low-fantasy mod with dragons.

You are overthinking, there are plenty of mods that could use magic. Just do something, really.
 

Garedyr

Master Knight
WBVC
Judging by my extremally low amount of free time I have now and some score criteria modders must meet (easy to implement, customization) I've made my decision.
Unfortunately I won't be able to take part in this contest.

Good luck for everyone participating.
 

kalarhan

Python Saint
Count
WBNWVCWF&S
Masterancza said:
score criteria modders must meet (easy to implement, customization)

not sure if you are overthinking those 2. As long a new-ish modder can follow your instructions on how to deploy the code, and how/where to adjust variables for customization, you are already doing this. You do not need to teach them how to mod (that is what tutorials are for), but you do need to be clear on how to use the OSP.

Simple step by step instructions like:
- insert this script on module_scripts.py
- replace this script (delete the one from Native)
- this snippet on module_scripts.py, script "XXXX", between these lines [show lines]
- here are the constants for module_constants.py [show list of constants]

and so on.

Customization like:
- chance of this [name the mechanic] happening is on this line [show line]. Base is 10%.
  -> base decapitation chance is 10%. See this line [show code] to change it.

Of course you can work on improving how easy to understand and use your code is. Just put yourself on the shoes of other modders (less experient ones) and see if you could do it. OSP section has plenty of user cases to check out.

Also as important: it doesnt matter if your OSP has a 12-step installation manual, or just 2 steps. As long the above is true. So it wont have a negative impact if a project requires changing 20 places in 7 files (e.g.), if that is what the design calls for.
 

Ruthven

Baron
WBM&BVC
IMO, these contests should avoid limiting submissions as much as possible. Want to use WSE? Do it, take a point penalty - why would we want to miss out on a potentially unique/awesome/useful feature? Is the purpose of these contests to determine the fairest winner, or to stimulate the community?

Similarly, if you have a script that needs sounds (or whatever), and you don't make sounds, and cannot find any free to use, why not let them take a video with whatever they need to showcase the code? As long as only the script is distributed, no harm is being done.

Also, don't fret too much over the topic, I'm sure these contests will come back around to 'scripting' before too long.  :razz:
 

kalarhan

Python Saint
Count
WBNWVCWF&S
Ruthven said:
IMO, these contests should avoid limiting submissions as much as possible.

that is a fair point, but everything has limits. If you leave the door open for any kind of submission, then what happens when:

1) some use WSE extended operations
2) some use WSE with Lua
3) someone uses custom WSE with C#
4) someone uses custom WSE with F#
5) someone uses a custom modsys made in Java
6) someone decides to use Ruby
...

you will need judges that can read, understand, interpret, analyze, use, test and score all of those. All judges (to make the score fair) need to be able to score all submissions, so we can have a average score among them.

now you dont limit to modsys 1.170+, you let people use Caribbean! modsys and engine, or WF&S, or 1.0 ...

on code sharing they can use WRECK, modmerger, [add other tools here, including self-made tools not public].

I am sure that future contests can and will allow for more options, like WSE. But before that happens they will need to find people to organize it. So one step at time  :grin:
 

Ruthven

Baron
WBM&BVC
Put a standard distribution on those numbers / the number of submissions this contest will ever receive:

0) Native modsys                                                  ("50%")
1) some use WSE extended operations                    (34%)
2) some use WSE with Lua                                    (13% - everything past this point will probably never occur unless we get >50 submissions)
3) someone uses custom WSE with C#                    (2%)
4) someone uses custom WSE with F#                    (let's call this 2% as well)
5) someone uses a custom modsys made in Java    (0.1% - our 1000th submission to the scripting contest)
6) someone decides to use Ruby                            (kt0 doesn't mod M&B anymore)

You have a point. But, I think it's a completely false concern, and if you ever go past #2 (WSE+Lua) I will be completely flabbergasted. I also notice a lot of the "anti-WSE" crowd are single-player focused modders, so the logic of "get more creative with Native" makes sense in the context of SP, but in terms of server-side mods/MP modding in general, not allowing WSE is just saying "most of your cool ideas are impossible again."

I'm not trying to argue, the decision it seems is final, but I do think it is at best a misguided rule. I reiterate:
Ruthven said:
Is the purpose of these contests to determine the fairest winner, or to stimulate the community?
This question should be answered before these contests can begin, and I don't think I have to tell you which of the two options I deem preferable. The judges are smart people, we shouldn't limit the skill level of submissions based on presumptions of how effectively the code can be judged. If someone comes in with a bangin' script nobody understands, suddenly we have not only an opportunity for all modders involved (including the judges) to learn new ways of using/looking at modding M&B, but we also have a cool and unique feature that - even if you don't understand it, you can implement and get it working. (<- this is how 99.9999% of all modders learn code anyways - copy, paste, pray.)
I do believe creativity thrives best under constraint. But fewer submissions is a bad thing. Let the constraints be determined by the topic, not the tools.

I also don't like the "one step at a time" notion. There isn't a lot of red tape to cross here. K700 and EmilRegis said something like "I won't do this contest without WSE." Well, turn them away, fine, it's not wrong to do so, but I just don't see the point. The OP would take 5 minutes to update - I would love to see submissions from two of the best and most active scripters in the community, even if I don't find use for their codes; I'm sure there would be much I (and many others) could learn from it. Isn't that the whole point?



Regardless, I'm not trying to attack anyone involved - obviously this is a great initiative and I have nothing but respect and thanks to all the organisers, judges, and participants.
 
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