taleworlds does not care about the experienced players multiplayer scene

[metafa]

Getting shredded by some random default armor guy with a spiked club, when you're carrying a massive axe and wearing armor, is on another level of being destroyed than your example, I think it's fair to say. I'll keep repeating it: equipment selection isn't the problem here.

And I happen to think it strongly contributes to it.

How does, e.g, a prebuilt loadout system where you press a button that says "anti-cav", and it gives you a loadout from the free selection choices that is better against Cavalry, not resolve this problem? How would a multiplayer tutorial on equipment selection not also resolve this problem? There's several options to use tied to a Warband-esque system that resolves this problem without destroying the player agency for everyone else?

I'll tell you how and will probably explain 10 more times today. That's fine. Not like I have to work or help the children do their homework or anything. The WB system allows you to specialize your loadout to your playing style which makes you pretty much invincable for newbies. As was already pointed out they have it rough enough in the beginning. Meeting only specialized hardcode ninjas isn't gonna help one bit. That's ONE area where the complexity for them can be reduced. To know what they can do the instance they see the available choices and to know what they're up against the instance they see you.

This is the biggest strawman I've seen on this forum for a while. I won't even dignify it with a response.

That's fine. I'm only ~100% convinced of it.

 

[Sundeki]

And I happen to think it strongly contributes to it.

How does a skill-based combat component, that has absolutely nothing to do with the class system or loadout selection have to do with class selection and loadout? Please explain to me your rationale.

I'll tell you how and will probably explain 10 more times today. The WB system allows you to specialize your loadout to your playing style which makes you pretty much invincable for newbies.

And I'll keep repeating this irrefutable fact: I can/will destroy newbies with any/all weapons in the game. The loadout is irrelevant. I am invincible against newbies regardless. I remember in 2010 before I reached my skill peak: using only 1000 gold worth of items I 1v9'd newer players. I can fight multiple newer players with a spiked club. The loadout is irrelevant.

That's fine. I'm only ~100% convinced of it.

You can be convinced that water is dry if you want. That's your business.

 

[metafa]

And I'll keep repeating this irrefutable fact: I can/will destroy newbies with any/all weapons in the game. The loadout is irrelevant. I am invincible against newbies regardless. I remember in 2010 before I reached my skill peak: using only 1000 gold worth of items I 1v9'd newer players. I can fight multiple newer players with a spiked club. The loadout is irrelevant.

Yes, you will. But whether they're destroyed by you and 3 others on the server and were just a little too weak for 20 others and were able to understand instinctively how all worked and what options there were, or whether they are destroyed by 95% on the server, didn't see any light at the end of the tunnel, and were also overwhelmed by the starting options, ect makes a world of a difference.

 

[Sundeki]

Yes, you will. But whether they're destroyed by you and 3 others on the server and were just a little too weak for 20 others and were able to understand instinctively how all worked and what options there were, or whether they are destroyed by 95% on the server, didn't see any light at the end of the tunnel, and were also overwhelmed by the starting options, ect makes a world of a difference.

We're can ride this train 'till the end of time if you want: the issue you describe doesn't have anything to do with the loadout, and can be acheived with no gold-purchased items at all. How can something that has nothing to do with the problem be the problem?

 

[metafa]

We're can ride this train 'till the end of time if you want: the issue you describe doesn't have anything to do with the loadout, and can be acheived with no gold-purchased items at all. How can something that has nothing to do with the problem be the problem?

So, you're just arguing to have the gold system removed? I mean, I think I like it more now than when there was no gold in the beta, but it would be debatable for me. The class system on the other hand is a vital component I would refuse to take into consideration. Of course I don't count and make no decisions, just concerning my opinion. And why that is the case I really really extensively laid out now, and from my point of view, if you haven't understood what I am trying to bring across by now you really don't want to.

 

[Sundeki]

So, you're just arguing to have the gold system removed?

Nowhere did I even imply that, I have no idea how you managed to get here.

if you haven't understood what I am trying to bring across by now you really don't want to.

Yikes, okay. I'll try and use some visual queues.

The red bar is the combat skill component of the game. It is responsible for the situation you're describing, specifically that newer players get disheartened at being destroyed by veteran players. The second red bard with the blue bar in it is the same, but the blue represents the loadout situation in this scenario. You keep bringing up, over and over, that the bottom bar is red because it has a blue bar in it. No, the red bar existed already, exists independently of the blue bar, and the blue bar doesn't make any changes to the red bar's existence, it's still the same size. I can't get any more basic than this.

 

[metafa]

The red bar is the combat skill component of the game. It is responsible for the situation you're describing, specifically that newer players get disheartened at being destroyed by veteran players. The second red bard with the blue bar in it is the same, but the blue represents the loadout situation in this scenario. You keep bringing up, over and over, that the bottom bar is red because it has a blue bar in it. No, the red bar existed already, exists independently of the blue bar, and the blue bar doesn't make any changes to the red bar's existence, it's still the same size. I can't get any more basic than this.

Yes, and you just disregard 50% of my argument. It's not just that the loadout stuff is overwhelming to new players. It's also that "old" players learn with time to disproportionally use it to their own advantage, eliminating every single (or lets say most) of their weaknesses and overstrengthening their already vast advantage resulting from their experience and that is not compensated by new players having an "anti-cav" button. I hope it was clearer now.

 

[Maroon]

And of course now the thread descends into an endless back and forth between two people misinterpreting each other. Nice, there goes our chance to have a conversation with Callum about this.

 

[Caius_III]

Yes, and you just disregard 50% of my argument. It's not just that the loadout stuff is overwhelming to new players. It's also that "old" players learn with time to disproportionally use it to their own advantage, eliminating every single (or lets say most) of their weaknesses and overstrengthening their already vast advantage resulting from their experience. I hope it was clearer now.

You can't really use it to your advantage to be honest, everybody takes the same classes whether they are new players or experienced players. Nobody wants to play with the levy infantry and his fork, camel breeder, tomato grower,... so everybody takes the heavy armored archer, infantry or cavalry and then if they get ****ed and they have some money left, then they take what's left. It's as simple as that.

 

[Sundeki]

It's also that "old" players learn with time to disproportionally use it to their own advantage, eliminating every single (or lets say most) of their weaknesses and overstrengthening their already vast advantage resulting from their experience. I hope it was clearer now.

Your argument is quite clear, you're just not reading what I am saying. The "understanding of the loadout" doesn't have anything to do with the situation. It's an understanding of game mechanics that exists entirely independantly of loadout. The situation you're describing would be exactly the same if I was forced to use an equipment randomizer, that gave me a random model, with random speed/length/attack stats. The loadout, and my understanding of it is irrelevant to the destruction and disheartening of the newer player.

And of course now the thread descends into an endless back and forth between two people misinterpreting each other. Nice, there goes our chance to have a conversation with Callum about this.

Perhaps you could inform me as to how what he is saying makes any sense then, perhaps?

 

[metafa]

You can't really use it to your advantage to be honest, everybody takes the same classes whether they are new players or experienced players. Nobody wants to play with the levy infantry and his fork, camel breeder, tomato grower,... so everybody takes the heavy armored archer, infantry or cavalry and then if they get ****ed and they have some money left, then they take what's left. It's as simple as that.

Yeayea. But I know how it goes. I'd not say all, but many of those in favor of the loadout system were nights long awake trying every single piece of equipment and knowing which blade is JUST long enough from horse back to reach someone standing 0,9 meters away, while also being light enough to do X. You can do that in SP ad absurdum, but in MP it's a problem. The class system just beautifully works around that.

 

[Caius_III]

Except the guy with the cheaper sword could **** the guy who had the best one. Armors weren't that big of a deal on Warband which meant that you could always find a way to win even if the guy in front of you was heavily armored and you weren't. So I'd say the old system was fairer to the newcomers.

Also, it's not like we were doing hardcore maths... I want to be faster, I take a short sword, I want a better helmet, I take the better helmet,... I've got 1000 gold but I want a better shield and a **** sword, that's what I'll do then, even on high competitive levels,... we didn't give a **** to be honest. Even I learned after 8 years because my teammates were joking about that, that I was taking a **** bow during matches because I thought it was the better one and I didn't look at the stats, just thought it looked cool...

 

[metafa]

Except the guy with the cheaper sword could **** the guy who had the best one. Armors weren't that big of a deal on Warband which meant that you could always find a way to win even if the guy in front of you was heavily armored and you weren't. So I'd say the old system was fairer to the newcomers.

Only that the newcomers never had any money for anything. And as said, when you're like *totally* new, the loadout system in offputting due to it giving you the impression that you only inadequately used the available options in front of you. I just remember to vividly how I experienced it the first time, and I came from around 2 month of playing SP already.

 

[Rangah]

Use any argument you wish about Warband vs Bannerlord class system and I'll gladly consider each one. But what I absolutely, definitely cannot fathom is what by papa smurf's big blue chode is so complicated or overwhelming about a system that tells you to pick a class (infantry, ranged, cavalry), shows you your available amount of gold and then lets you pick between pieces of gear (helmet, body, gloves, boots, weapons, shields, horse) that are sorted from cheapest -> expensive. Expensive = better. You take what you like and feel is best for your current available gold amount. ???????

Are we to assume every new player is some sort of troglodyte that can only click on big, colorful buttons with pictures where every piece of gear is already selected for him?

Who expects to jump into a multiplayer game and be completely familiar with it's systems after 10 hours of playing?

 

[metafa]

Use any argument you wish about Warband vs Bannerlord class system and I'll gladly consider each one. But what I absolutely, definitely cannot fathom is what by papa smurf's big blue chode is so complicated or overwhelming about a system that tells you to pick a class (infantry, ranged, cavalry), shows you your available amount of gold and then lets you pick between pieces of gear (helmet, body, gloves, boots, weapons, shields, horse) that are sorted from cheapest -> expensive. Expensive = better. You take what you like and feel is best for your current available gold amount. ???????

Are we to assume every new player is some sort of troglodyte that can only click on big, colorful buttons with pictures where every piece of gear is already selected for him?

Who expects to jump into a multiplayer game and be completely familiar with it's systems after 10 hours of playing?

I first didn't like it because of the amount of options. Later I didn't like it because I was busy equiping and not killing. There.

 

[Caius_III]

Use any argument you wish about Warband vs Bannerlord class system and I'll gladly consider each one. But what I absolutely, definitely cannot fathom is what by papa smurf's big blue chode is so complicated or overwhelming about a system that tells you to pick a class (infantry, ranged, cavalry), shows you your available amount of gold and then lets you pick between pieces of gear (helmet, body, gloves, boots, weapons, shields, horse) that are sorted from cheapest -> expensive. Expensive = better. You take what you like and feel is best for your current available gold amount. ???????

Are we to assume every new player is some sort of troglodyte that can only click on big, colorful buttons with pictures where every piece of gear is already selected for him?

Who expects to jump into a multiplayer game and be completely familiar with it's systems after 10 hours of playing?

You said it all.

 

[Rangah]

In the grim darkness of the far future, there are only troglodytes...

 

[saucefar]

Because the game is not about toxic multiplayer, simple as that.

 

[Caius_III]

Because the game is not about toxic multiplayer, simply as that.

The only toxic people I'm seeing right now are the ones who, for the sake of

" approachability "

Spoiler

-> lol <- ( ye weird flex blabla )

don't want to see any improvements in a game which is right now unbalanced and which has several little issues harming some aspects of the game like its most important part, the combat. And the best part about that is that all of it can be fixed because it's not like they've to remake the whole thing, it just needs some important little tweaks here and there, so yeah, nothing toxic about trying to improve the experience for everybody.

 

[Lord Bryggan]

I think every infantry class should have access to a shield, especially in siege. I will admit I have been killed a few times being a little too focused on searching corpses for a shield instead of watching for enemies. It is nice having a sword as a sidearm to your bardiche for fighting in tight areas, but without a shield you aren't going to get into the castle.