taleworlds does not care about the experienced players multiplayer scene

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There was nothing wrong with warbands system. Someone please tell me what was wrong with it? The only reason was to dumb the game down so it can be moved to console and to make it more "available" to the masses. They made it so this game could fit in the style of quick games where you just jump in and play like every other game out there is like. From a business standpoint, hey, if thats what you want to do and sellout then fine. But let me tell you something, mount and blade isnt like every other game out there and its not meant for us to be forced to play in this ****ty way. You guys dropped the ball big time on this one. Its a true PC game at heart and they seem to have forgotten that
 

Scarf Ace

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVCM&B
In my opinion, Warband's system was quite limited. There are optimal purchases that you should make, with the majority of gear being simply ignored.
Ah, so you're taking the competitive angle again. Of course, the far more populous casual side of the game doesn't really care for optimal choices nearly as much.
Now, even if we ignore that fact, I can't help but notice that this has far more to do with how the gear is balanced than any underlying system. Clearly, the equipment selection in Warband just wasn't up to scratch by your standards then, and therefore the key would be to come up with new ways to give unpopular items an interesting niche, rather than throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Ultimately, a small minority of highly optimal choices always will exist. They sure do in Bannerlord, and there ultimately isn't that much you can do against it.

It is also possible to eliminate most of the drawbacks of any of the classes (inf, ranged, cav) by swapping gear with teammates (and please don't get me wrong, I love the teamwork and communication involved in gear swapping, I'm just not a fan that there are few, if any, downsides to it).
Again with the competitive rubbish. I don't give a rat's arse about competitive.
Your system ruins casual play with its sterile, boring nature, and you've yet to win the established competitive community's support anyway.
Casual players basically never gearswap, not that it really matters when they do. Besides, much of this could've been adjusted by changing the various stats on the individual classes to adjust what they can use, and how well.

The class system presents you with a meaningful choice
Yeah, which of the very few non-rubbish perks should I pick? :roll:
that you have to make with each spawn, taking into account your own team composition and that of the enemy. This choice can then be further tailored through perks.
Let's be honest here, the viable options at the moment are fewer and further in-between than in Warband. If you manage to solve this, I know that you know it'll have far more to do with time taken to balance things, rather than any underlying traits of the system itself.
If you provide a free selection of gear with plenty of viable selections, then you will obviously have a far more interesting variety of options, combinations and choices than the current system could ever provide.
In Warband, I've picked an immeasurable variety of different loadouts over time depending on budget, map, gamemode, and so on. Fine-tuning, tweaking and adjusting things just right to be the most effective, or just the most fun at that moment.
All of this fun, and (arguably far more important for MP), replayability has been tossed out of the window with your stale, samey system.
The amount of things you can do with the Warband system is staggering, especially considering how utterly basic it actually is. That you decided to throw out all of this potential is just insanity. You could've built on the excellent foundation that is the Warband system to create something incredible, instead you decided to build on an incredibly shaky one.

Now, I'm sure you want to say that you'll say that Warband has a major flaw, in that for example, you can always get a good shield as infantry, unlike Bannerlord where many two-hander troops don't have such an option, or can only get a tiny, crappy one.
However, this doesn't really hold any water, as you can see by people suggesting that every class should get a the option of a shield - you are not providing interesting choices, you're merely providing mechanically non-viable options. If you make what used to be non-viable viable, then this is again far more likely to be an issue of balancing gear, rather than the underlying class system.

Obviously, perks and classes still need some work, there is no doubt about that, but eventually, I think they will provide players with a fairer and ultimately better MP experience.
I feel that the only missing ingredient is the visual customisation that Warband offers, allowing players to inject their own personality into their character.
The only "unfair" thing about Warband's system, that of "Snowballing", or having more money than others, isn't even fixed in Bannerlord. In fact many have argued that it's gotten far worse in Skirmish. Not that many of us ever considered it a problem in the first place.
To limit customisation to superficial aspects is a non-solution. Not only that, but that instant recognisability of classes that you used to proclaim was oh-so important (it isn't, and you haven't achieved it anyway) would go even further down the drain.

Look, your system just can't provide what people want. I know you're invested in it, but that's just how it is. People aren't disliking it out of habit or nostalgia, it's just that you can't see what the community sees.
An alternative is desperately needed.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
You could do exactly the same in warband, not sure where this is going, like callum said it has a drawback
 

Drithyl

Regular
WBNWVC
Yes, but it comes with a drawback in that you can't buy an extra item for a teammate, you have to drop your own.

Fair, but many classes have more than just a primary weapon, especially infantry which can spawn with a sword and an axe, for instance. And the fact that anyone can use anything does little to enforce these perk drawbacks as well. You can take heavily armored infantry and become an archer or a horseman, and vice versa.
 

Scarf Ace

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVCM&B
Yes, but it comes with a drawback in that you can't buy an extra item for a teammate, you have to drop your own.
So, if the problem for example is that you can give a shield to an archer who shouldn't have one, then that just means that other classes shouldn't be able to buy more than one in competitive.
 

Maroon

Grandmaster Knight
WBWF&SNW
So, if the problem for example is that you can give a shield to an archer who shouldn't have one, then that just means that other classes shouldn't be able to buy more than one in competitive.
Exactly. There are much more elegant ways to fix these issues by making tweaks to the equipment system. Hell, add a server option to enable "Competitive mode", which has additional restrictions like no double shielding.
 
The crux of the issue is Bannerlord offers a grand total of 3 choices per respawn - class, perk 1, perk 2. That's it. No fun allowed. To further claim that a system that forces a portion of the players to spawn in objectively inferior (as opposed to just different) classes is more balanced is comically insane.

Bannerlord is not League of Legends, Overwatch, or Elder Scrolls Online. We don't have 'abilities', specializations, or resource management. It's a no-fantasy medieval fighting game where the only meaningful choices a player can make is their equipment. Please reconsider taking that away.
 

Tork789

Knight at Arms
WBNWWF&SM&BVC
I also have over 1500 hours in Warband MP alone, and while I liked the customisation of Warband's item selection system, I can see that the potential of the Class system outweighs what was previously on offer.
2355 hours on steam version and about 500+ on non-steam version and I completely agree.
 

Scarf Ace

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVCM&B
The crux of the issue is Bannerlord offers a grand total of 3 choices per respawn - class, perk 1, perk 2. That's it. No fun allowed. To further claim that a system that forces a portion of the players to spawn in objectively inferior (as opposed to just different) classes is more balanced is comically insane.

Bannerlord is not League of Legends, Overwatch, or Elder Scrolls Online. We don't have 'abilities', specializations, or resource management. It's a no-fantasy medieval fighting game where the only meaningful choices a player can make is their equipment. Please reconsider taking that away.
Honestly, the class system, and how the devs have extolled its virtues makes it sound like they think they're making a game with mediguns, sticky bombs and invisibility watches, rather than pointy sticks.
 

Spanker

Sergeant Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
I think we all need to accept they are not going to change the class system, we're going over ground that was widely discussed and debated throughout the beta. It is not going to happen. They made a clear mistake by trying to build the MP with a competitive mindsight, instead, they should have built the MP tailored towards casual gameplay and added the competitive side of Bannerlord overtime. Taleworlds need to do more to address feedback given from the community, over the past year dozens and dozens of threads have been posted and ignored by players who are rightly pissed with the attitude of the developers. People are spending hours of their time trying to give constructive feedback with various videos and clips only to not even be acknowledged by the developers. This honestly needs to change as it is only creating unneeded animosity between the community and Taleworlds.
 
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Marko͘

Section Moderator
WBNWM&BWF&SVC
They made a clear mistake by trying to build the MP with a competitive mindsight.
This is wrong because if you look around many of the game's mechanics and design philosophy are not even closely in line with what the WB competitive scene has been requesting for years.

There's nothing competitive about a game with no MMR in matchmaking and a dumbed down combat, gamemode and equipment system.
 
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pygc1

Sergeant at Arms
The Bannerlord class system is like Overwatch, players have to pick a character. The Warband system is like CSGO, with customized loadout. Overwatch has updates frequently because it is much more difficult to balance the game with that system, but CSGO never has any update regarding its balance because its system is superior for game balance.
Warband system has 3 classes across all factions: archers(horse archers for Khergits), infantry, cavalry. Bannerlord has 7 classes for each faction: light infantry, heavy infantry, light archer, heavy archer, light cavalry, heavy cavalry, skirmishers, shock infantry, mounted archers. Many of the classes can be combined into one class(light infantry, heavy infantry). What's the point of all those very specific classes? The 3 class system can provide any possible role of the 7 class system, and it is intuitively easier to balance 3 classes than 7 classes.
Also Warband system can provide many more different combinations of armor loadout than Bannerlord, just do the math. Players like variations on the battlefield and feel unique, rather than identical to other players. The single armor value for head, torse, and leg in Bannerlord even limits the different combinations more. Even Mordhau has different armor value for different body parts. It just makes more sense for a swordfighting game. Even shooting games like CSGO has a head armor and regular armor.
 

grimsight

Sergeant Knight
WB
As pointed out the MP design is hilariously backwards and twisted. seemingly there has been a huge increase in competitive focus for Bannerlord: tons of manpower and focus on overdesigning things like skirmish, class system, stances (lol)

Meanwhile when you look at changes to the actual fundamentals of combat, they have literally diminished the skill cap of the game to 1/10th of what Warband has.

so what are we left with

no fun community servers
bad competitive gameplay

esport incoming 😎
 

cabjay

Recruit
The Bannerlord class system is like Overwatch, players have to pick a character. The Warband system is like CSGO, with customized loadout. Overwatch has updates frequently because it is much more difficult to balance the game with that system, but CSGO never has any update regarding its balance because its system is superior for game balance.
Warband system has 3 classes across all factions: archers(horse archers for Khergits), infantry, cavalry. Bannerlord has 7 classes for each faction: light infantry, heavy infantry, light archer, heavy archer, light cavalry, heavy cavalry, skirmishers, shock infantry, mounted archers. Many of the classes can be combined into one class(light infantry, heavy infantry). What's the point of all those very specific classes? The 3 class system can provide any possible role of the 7 class system, and it is intuitively easier to balance 3 classes than 7 classes.
Also Warband system can provide many more different combinations of armor loadout than Bannerlord, just do the math. Players like variations on the battlefield and feel unique, rather than identical to other players. The single armor value for head, torse, and leg in Bannerlord even limits the different combinations more. Even Mordhau has different armor value for different body parts. It just makes more sense for a swordfighting game. Even shooting games like CSGO has a head armor and regular armor.
Agreed
 

blondiecan

Recruit
I don't mind the class system, I can see how its an easier option for playing for new players, and this is coming from a Warband vet. What I do mind is the gimpy slowness of the combat, the block and attack delays, the sluggishness of some things. How many hits it takes to kill somebody. I'd like to see all that change first.
 

z00t

Regular
WB
The "veterans" are kinda the problem of MP right now.
I mean- It's a forum, and you have a right to assume/declare pretty much anything of your opinion; but may I ask or inquire as to the why/how of this statement? It'd go a long way to being constructive rather than just bashing people with more experience than you.
 

RDP

Sergeant
This is something that we might explore later down the line during EA.
Are you the only person actually looking at mp threads? If so, mate we need servers (OCE matchmaking) maps and gamemodes, this is getting boring real quick.
 

Maroon

Grandmaster Knight
WBWF&SNW
This is wrong because if you look around many of the game's mechanics and design philosophy are not even closely in line with what the WB competitive scene has been requesting for years.

There's nothing competitive about a game with no MMR in matchmaking and a dumbed down combat, gamemode and equipment system.
But we have a dedicated 6v6 mode now! No more equipment sharing! That's all you ever wanted, right?
/s, obviously
 
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