taleworlds does not care about the experienced players multiplayer scene

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Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
I made it very clear those were just my opinions, yea! Fair points. It's not about the content here, more about the toxicity. That was the only thing I really wanted to comment on, because it's counter productive for the dialogue. In my opinion all the swearing and acting like spoiled children hurts the community more than occasional bad games or mistakes. Makes for apathetic Electronic arts *Cough cough* like studios that don't care for their custommers because they're angry spoiled children. I sure wouldn't care about the input after reading this thread.

I won't comment on any of the mechanics at current, but the dialogue is more productive if it's clean, productive and calm. People might actually start looking at the feedback if everyone stops being toxic towards the people who are providing them enjoyment.

I agree, too much feedback has been ignored. But writing what's wrong with a game and actually sitting there having to make choices and writing thousands of lines of code are two different things alltogether. I'm sure they're reading the feedback, making choices. Nobody makes terrible choices on purpose. Clean communication could help. This whole thread is counter-productive. That's my opinion. (Aside from the few good calm inputs.)
Problem is most thing don't even require thousand lines or code. Most combat parameters need a few values changed to fix it.

Just look at autorun. It took several months for them to introduce it and guess what? Someone made autorun with only one line of code. One line.

This kind of things are frustrating, its a simple suggestion that doesn't change anything to the game except good things. There is nothing against autorun to be against.
 

Jess_the_Hobozerk

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
It's not like everybody is insulting the devs though.
I feel as though some people take "This mechanic sucks" as though that person just kicked taleworld's dog.


all the swearing and acting like spoiled children hurts the community more than occasional bad games or mistakes. Makes for apathetic Electronic arts *Cough cough* like studios that don't care for their custommers because they're angry spoiled children. I sure wouldn't care about the input after reading this thread.

EA didn't become bad because their customers started whining, are you kidding me? EA became bad when lust for monetary gain surpassed their desire to create timeless and objectively good games to thrill their customer. They run a business on buying out great IPs and milking that cow until the udder has caught flame, then they shoot that cow and go to the market to buy another.

This is a complete false equivalency logical fallacy. Are you honestly telling me that successful businesses do not have the ability to receive criticism from it's customers? That they have the emotional capacity of a toddler and will actively sabotage themselves because they can't handle anything but good news? A business fundamentally works by listening and satisfying a customer's needs.

Obviously clean dialogue is more productive, but taleworlds has shown that they don't care what kind of speech is used by the customers because they aren't reading or seriously entertaining ideas by the customer anyway.
 
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Gismo

Recruit
I feel as though some people take "This mechanic sucks" as though that person just kicked taleworld's dog.




EA didn't become bad because their customers started whining, are you kidding me? EA became bad when lust for monetary gain surpassed their desire to create timeless and objectively good games to thrill their customer. They run a business on buying out great IPs and milking that cow until the udder has caught flame, then they shoot that cow and go to the market to buy another.

This is a complete false equivalency logical fallacy. Are you honestly telling me that successful businesses do not have the ability to receive criticism from it's customers? That they have the emotional capacity of a toddler and will actively sabotage themselves because they can't handle anything but good news? A business fundamentally works by listening and satisfying a customer's needs.

Obviously clean dialogue is more productive, but taleworlds has shown that they don't care what kind of speech is used by the customers because they aren't reading or seriously entertaining ideas by the customer anyway.

Criticism =/= "**** you. This is ****ing ****ed. I hate this. **** **** **** **** rarrr FACTS. Everything you say is wrong. I know best. Now do everything I want you to do!"

That's just not how human motivation works. Nobody wants to do work for idiots or people who claim you're incompetent.

I didn't say EA became like that because of people's behaviour, that's just a pointless strawman argument. Seriously, where did I claim that? I have zero clue why Electronic Arts became ****ty. I didn't study Electronic Arts' history whatsoever. However, I do think that treating people poorly doesn't make them more productive or more likely to do what you want for them. I really just equated Electronics Arts with bad company. Could've put anything there.

Anyone can make up an argument the other person didn't say and attack it. I'm not kidding you. There's no false equivalency. I didn't make a historic claim about Electronic Arts, and if I did that was definetly not intentional... But again, I didn't.
 
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Jess_the_Hobozerk

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Criticism =/= "**** you. This is ****ing ****ed. I hate this. **** **** **** **** rarrr FACTS. Everything you say is wrong. I know best. Now do everything I want you to do!"

That's just not how human motivation works. Nobody wants to do work for idiots or people who claim you're incompetent.

I didn't say EA became like that because of people's behaviour, that's just a pointless strawman argument. Seriously, where did I claim that? I have zero clue why Electronic Arts became ****ty. I didn't study Electronic Arts' history whatsoever. However, I do think that treating people poorly doesn't make them more productive or more likely to do what you want for them.

Anyone can make up an argument the other person didn't say and attack it. I'm not kidding you. There's no false equivalency. I didn't make a historic claim about Electronic Arts, and if I did that was definetly not intentional... But again, I didn't.
You might have wanted to word it differently then because the way you wrote it absolutely claimed EA is a product of its consumers. You made a comparison statement, stating that complaining creates apathetic studios like Electronic arts, whereas their motivation is entirely different and entirely unrelated to player's complaints. Complaints to EA is a result of EA's actions not the other way around.

"Makes for apathetic Electronic arts *Cough cough* like studios that don't care for their custommers because they're angry spoiled children." is a direct correlation of cause-effect in that complaining results in EA-like practices.

Also a business is not driven by human motivation or emotion. TaleWorlds is not 'a person', they are a business. It is in the best interests of a business to listen to complaints by its consumers to develop metrics to determine whether current business practices and decisions is resulting in a positive experience for their paying customers so that they will continue to be paying customers. It is direct data on whether or not something is profitable, it is business 101.
 

Gismo

Recruit
You might have wanted to word it differently then because the way you wrote it absolutely claimed EA is a product of its consumers. You made a comparison statement, stating that complaining creates apathetic studios like Electronic arts, whereas their motivation is entirely different and entirely unrelated to player's complaints. Complaints to EA is a result of EA's actions not the other way around.

"Makes for apathetic Electronic arts *Cough cough* like studios that don't care for their custommers because they're angry spoiled children." is a direct correlation of cause-effect in that complaining results in EA-like practices.

Also a business is not driven by human motivation or emotion. TaleWorlds is not 'a person', they are a business. It is in the best interests of a business to listen to complaints by its consumers to develop metrics to determine whether current business practices and decisions is resulting in a positive experience for their paying customers so that they will continue to be paying customers. It is direct data on whether or not something is profitable, it is business 101.

I could've written it better. You're right.

Replace Electronic Arts with "****ty game company." in my initial comment and it'll be more akin to what I actually meant. Did not mean to imply a direct correlation between the two. There obviously isn't one. Just meant to say that I don't want Taleworlds to start having no regards for their custommers like certain ****ty game studios do.

The fact they're even listening to us is a gift to begin with. They don't have to take every single input from every single user on the forums. And people seem to get into the wrong mindset of "**** you, **** this. Everyone hates everyone raarr. If I yell they'll listen!" and that's horrible for dialogue. The few loud mouths ruin it for everyone else who actually have valid criticisms and concerns.

I'll stop now, since this isn't what this thread is about.You get what I mean.

On that note. Multiplayer dedicated servers should be released asap and more gamemodes (Like battle for big line-battles etc. These are what made Warband special to me. Roman shieldwall linebattles in Mount and Gladius, Warband competetive play, Star Wars mods, PW, all that. Roleplay servers etc.). That'd just about satisfy me on this topic. Just give more control to players as soon as possible!

Those are my two cents.. You're welcome.
 

Sundeki

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWB
I agree, too much feedback has been ignored. But writing what's wrong with a game and actually sitting there having to make choices and writing thousands of lines of code are two different things alltogether. I'm sure they're reading the feedback, making choices. Nobody makes terrible choices on purpose. Clean communication could help. This whole thread is counter-productive. That's my opinion. (Aside from the few good calm inputs.)
Nobody makes terrible choices on purpose, but they can make terrible choices if they're ignorant of how intricately balanced mechanics interact with each other, or if they're out of touch with their playerbase. While not an attack on them, to my knowledge; TaleWorlds doesn't have any competitive-level players working for them. They might be the ones actually making the game, and as a general rule it's more than reasonable to say they know more of what they are doing on making it than almost everyone here. But if that is a fair statement, then it is also a fair statement that their core playerbase knows more about playing the game/s than TaleWorlds does. And the problems highlighted by the veteran community on this forum over the last ~9 months have been near unanimous, and yet 90-95% of the problems brought forward that are almost unanimously agreed upon by the people that know best of all what playing the game is like, has gone completely ignored.

The thing that is counter-productive most of all is the unwillingness for TaleWorlds, for whatever reason (I don't actually know what it is) to engage with their playerbase and take heed of their advice on these matters. The best developed multiplayer games are essentially a partnership between the developers and their core playerbase. I refuse to believe they're so stupid as to be ignorant of, or intentionally ignore, this basic truth of game development. The upset people are people that care enormously about this game/franchise, and when they're seemingly ignored for months on end; that some of them(us, since it includes me) get upset is inevitable. The entire thread(the entire beta forum section?) is counter-productive because seemingly nobody reads it.
 

Jess_the_Hobozerk

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I could've written it better. You're right.

Replace Electronic Arts with "****ty game company." in my initial comment and it'll be more akin to what I actually meant. Did not mean to imply a direct correlation between the two. There obviously isn't one. Just meant to say that I don't want Taleworlds to start having no regards for their custommers like certain ****ty game studios do.

The fact they're even listening to us is a gift to begin with. They don't have to take every single input from every single user on the forums. And people seem to get into the wrong mindset of "**** you, **** this. Everyone hates everyone raarr. If I yell they'll listen!" and that's horrible for dialogue. The few loud mouths ruin it for everyone else who actually have valid criticisms and concerns.

I'll stop now, since this isn't what this thread is about.You get what I mean.

On that note. Multiplayer dedicated servers should be released asap and more gamemodes (Like battle for big line-battles etc. These are what made Warband special to me. Roman shieldwall linebattles in Mount and Gladius, Warband competetive play, Star Wars mods, PW, all that. Roleplay servers etc.). That'd just about satisfy me on this topic. Just give more control to players as soon as possible!

Those are my two cents.. You're welcome.
See I agree with you there, however the problem is the statement that "they're even listening to us is a gift to begin with" is false. TaleWorlds has shown absolution from any feedback and officially dismissed those constructive criticisms and pages upon pages of detailed analytics about the game's current state and its predicted linear future.

If they were actually communicating well, then yours would be a great world to live in. The problem is they haven't for over half a year and the very few statements they've made, are only dismissive without entertaining intellectual discussion or transparency on their intentions/reasoning. Behaving this way has got veterans like me concerned and for some; very agitated. This isn't a 'new' thing either, this exact problem surfaced with the community during warband as well where taleworlds disregarded multiplayer entirely and ignored valid concerns.
 

Gismo

Recruit
Fair points.

I agree with most things that have been said constructively in the posts before this one. Here are some of my own points:

Class system: I understand why they implemented it, and it does make the game more balanced and easy to work with, streamlining it for new players. I mean it sucks for us that they made a pillarstone of Warband's mechanics into something different, and made it less fun to customize etc. I think the major danger with all this, is people will simply get bored of the multiplayer gamemodes if they don't release dedicated servers and more gamemodes soon. Running around swinging your sword endlessly didn't work for Mordhau in the long run, and it won't help Bannerlord either. We need the things that made Warband so enjoyable for such a long time. The big battles, community arranged stuff etc. This isn't possible on the current gamemodes.

Combat: I have no quarrels with the combat itself. Shield bashing should be blockable somehow, and chambers should be doable with timing like in Warband. Damage values can be strange, but overall I prefer Bannerlord combat to Warband. It just feels more intuitive and realistic when you get used to it. At least to me. (Despite the flaws).

Matchmaking: Stop putting players with 7k hours against new players. If the class system was made to make it easier for new players to get into the game, then don't put them against players who no-life the game like myself. As an example I have 47 wins and 2 losses. I feel bad everytime I win, playing with my try-hard buds, some of whom are competing in those pro leagues on Warband. Often we play against the same team 5 times in a row, absolutely ruining the game experience for them. This needs to be fixed. Otherwise every new player who tries to enjoy the multiplayer game will be turned off it. Or they won't get to enjoy the game as much as they could. As a new player, I wouldn't enjoy being pushed against the top 5 % of the game over and over and over. It gives people a wrong perspective of the game.

Ignore the humble-bragging above. Felt it was necessary to get the point across. Maybe it wasn't. Might've just been obnoxious.. Oh well... Appologies.

I trust that Taleworlds will iron out these issues before full release. Even better, release dedicated servers and mod-tools + mapping to the community and let them do the work if they don't want to. People will grow tired of singleplayer eventually, if they care to make this game last a long time, they will fix Multiplayer before it's too late. The more power you give to the players, the longer they will enjoy the game. Class-system is a detriment to that.

Competetive scene: Warband's scene is impossible to create on the current game. Either the competetive scene has to change alltogether, or the game must undergo huge changes / have Gamemodes added that actually cater to competetive playstyles. You have great examples of how to do this in Warband already. Look at how dedicated servers and communities / clans are able to organize clanwars. They can't do that here.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
The perk system makes it harder to balance. You always have to take in account how all the perks work with eachother, if one perk is too strong, or a combination of two is, it will make metas prevalent . Or it makes other perks insignificant.

Warband was partly good in the long term because of the class system. You say adding gamemodes will cut it, but this class system won't cut it. Modes like deathmatch will become boring as hell.
 

bblzd

Veteran
M&B
Wouldn't valve take competitive players from CS:GO a little bit fking serious if CS:GO 2 was in the making?

Just like I'd invite competitive Counter Strike players to review my game if I had to make a sequel because of their understanding of the gameplay so that I'm sure my new game will be a better version.

Valve actually did use pro gamer input for making CS:GO in part because they wanted to bring both the Source and 1.6 communities together. One of the top requests given by them was to bring back the unintentional glitch of bunny hopping which Valve chose not to implement. Competitive players can make great insights but their requests should not be followed blindly either.
 

lawbringer

Recruit
yes hello im a new playur can u plz fix melee ty

that one guy named metafa is rly low iq if you read his posts and we really need to hit him with more ok boomers

he thinks that every new player is as low iq as he is which I think is a bad view to have of our nice playerbase :smile:
 

Gismo

Recruit
The perk system makes it harder to balance. You always have to take in account how all the perks work with eachother, if one perk is too strong, or a combination of two is, it will make metas prevalent . Or it makes other perks insignificant.

Warband was partly good in the long term because of the class system. You say adding gamemodes will cut it, but this class system won't cut it. Modes like deathmatch will become boring as hell.

Possibly true. I just imagine that if the players got more control, they could organize it in a better way. Original tournaments on Warband were hosted by players, not Taleworlds.

Dedicated servers and something like a battle-mode (Similar to the one in Warband) And duel mode could make for a lot of new ways for the players to organize stuff like that.

The current system for choosing troops is boring and soulless yes. I haven't seen any game work longterm with such a system implemented. I wholeheartedly agree. Think of Battlefield etc. They have to make a new game every year, and they use a similar all-around formular. Quick queue, hard-coded class systems with the extra added bonus of choice of weapon. It gets boring and repetetive.

Difference is I don't think Taleworlds wants to make a new game every year. So the current model might not work for them long-term.

Metas are always there though. Even on Warband at competetive level, you always choose very specific gear combinations. I think the problem is the deathmatch and Siege + Skirmish modes are terrible for competetive play. Just awful.

Players have exactly 0% control on how they wish to play the game because Taleworlds won't release dedicated servers yet.. :sad: If they do, we'll control the competetive nature of the game more. Release modding tools, mapping tools and private servers. We'll be absolutely golden. Because the best thing about Warband is the community's ability to blow my damn mind with creativity on these issues.

You can already see it on the forums, people are eager to solve the problems themselves. I say let them!
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Possibly true. I just imagine that if the players got more control, they could organize it in a better way. Original tournaments on Warband were hosted by players, not Taleworlds.

Dedicated servers and something like a battle-mode (Similar to the one in Warband) And duel mode could make for a lot of new ways for the players to organize stuff like that.

The current system for choosing troops is boring and soulless yes. I haven't seen any game work longterm with such a system implemented. I wholeheartedly agree. Think of Battlefield etc. They have to make a new game every year, and they use a similar all-around formular. Quick queue, hard-coded class systems with the extra added bonus of choice of weapon. It gets boring and repetetive.

Difference is I don't think Taleworlds wants to make a new game every year. So the current model might not work for them long-term.

Metas are always there though. Even on Warband at competetive level, you always choose very specific gear combinations. I think the problem is the deathmatch and Siege + Skirmish modes are terrible for competetive play. Just awful.

Players have exactly 0% control on how they wish to play the game because Taleworlds won't release dedicated servers yet.. :sad: If they do, we'll control the competetive nature of the game more. Release modding tools, mapping tools and private servers. We'll be absolutely golden. Because the best thing about Warband is the community's ability to blow my damn mind with creativity on these issues.

You can already see it on the forums, people are eager to solve the problems themselves. I say let them!
in mordhau the community made their own (in hand with the devs) sdk for modding. Still think the main problem is the matchmaking.
 
I'd like warbands custom loadout back with only picking your class being a determinant to your stats and the types of gear allowed to you. If the official servers wont have them the customs will. I hope Talesworld doesnt go all e sports focused B.S this game wont live in the console world.
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
I'd like warbands custom loadout back with only picking your class being a determinant to your stats and the types of gear allowed to you. If the official servers wont have them the customs will. I hope Talesworld doesnt go all e sports focused B.S this game wont live in the console world.
esports theres not even a skill based matchmaking. It couldnt be further away from that...
 

Nordous

Sergeant Knight
For some reason I was reading this in my head with tears in OP's voice. Darn, this guy is so emotional about a game. Just look at him, threatening to ask his money back...
 
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