Taking on named spawns

[el_miguel42]

Hi guys

Ive downloaded and been playing PoP for a bit now.  Ive got to the point where I have a fledgling kingdom, 1 town a couple of castles down near Nal Tar.  I have tried taking on some of the larger Jatu armies and was tempted to try Maltise, I can field just under 200 troops myself.  I have about 50 silvermists and 40 griffon knights.  I tend to use a mix of archers and cav with a smallish infantry support.

But I find that when I start combat with the jatu they tend to just charge straight in, I dont get a chance to set up my formation how I would like before the lancers run straight into my infantry and archers.  If  I charge with my cav to meet them I normally get heavy casualties.  Wondering what others do to avoid this problem?

I keep hearing about people using armies of about 150 or so to take on Maltise and other huge spawns.  There must be some kind of trick to this surely?  With those odds surely you just get overwhelmed?  Or is it a case of having tactics 10 or something?  What other tactics and tricks do you use when taking on forces that outnumber you?  Obviously if the enemy outnumber you 6 to 1.  Each casualty you take is a big deal for the next battle?

 

[Nekolacek]

Good idea would be to get help of your lords.
Also luring enemies into mountains area is good idea - Horses + Mountains= Cavalry off all kind being massacred.

 

[el_miguel42]

Thanks I was thinking along similar lines, while it makes sense to bring in other lords.  I've seen posts about people taking on wulfbode and maltise with only 150 troops or something along those lines.  Is a very high tactics skill an absolute must when trying to take on these spawns on your own?  Or are there specific battlefield tactics that work specifically well for one reason or another? 

 

[danthegreat]

I usualy find a noldor party and lure the spawn into it and watch as the noldor pwn them

 

[lothario]

Thanks I was thinking along similar lines, while it makes sense to bring in other lords.  I've seen posts about people taking on wulfbode and maltise with only 150 troops or something along those lines.  Is a very high tactics skill an absolute must when trying to take on these spawns on your own?  Or are there specific battlefield tactics that work specifically well for one reason or another?

Well, this is a complex problem with many correct answers. A lot of it depends on what kind of forces you have. Since you have a good blend of cavalry and archers, you have a number of good tactical options for taking down named spawns.

First of all, like Nekolacek suggested, finding terrain that gives you an edge is paramount for when you are vastly outnumbered. The Jatu's weakness is the fact that they are all cavalry unless they have rescues in their party, so any kind of terrain that plays into the cavalry's weakness will help you greatly. Mountains are an obvious choice for when you have lots of archers... in fact, depending on your difficulty level, that may be the only reasonably predictable way to succeed. Large bodies of water are the other way to bog them down and take away their lance-couching ability which is so deadly. They have to be slowed or stopped, busy doing something besides having their shields up, and then your Silvermists will pwn them very hard.

Here is a sneaky trick you can do with a cavalry/archer force:
At the outset of the battle, have your Griffons dismount and move slightly back from the line of horses. That line of horses forms an unchargeable blockade for your guys to take cover behind. Also, quickly move your archers back about twenty feet or so behind the Griffons, uphill from them if possible. You want the Jatu to crash into that blockade and gets stalled so that your Griffons (now on foot) can run up just a short distance to beat the crap outta them while your Silvermists tear them apart at medium to short range. This trick will usually only work for a short time, as after the initial charge many of the Jatu will start circling and use bows to skirmish instead. This is when you might want to re-mount up your knights and chase after them while your Silvermists advance towards the Jatu spawn point on the other side of the field. You have to keep your archers together, because it's gonna be rough. If you can hold that enemy spawn point and continually kill reinforcements before they can get up to speed, then you have won. Alternately, leave your Griffons on foot to act as an infantry escort for your archers and advance them together, trusting in your bowmen to finish off the stragglers. Any of the Jatu who get caught up in your improvised infantry guard will get brought down in short order, especially if you are on rough and hilly terrain where being on a horse is actually bad.

The Jatu are tough bastards... it won't be easy any way you try it when you are outnumbered. You're gonna take some losses -- maybe a lot of them if you are unlucky... even with a terrain advantage. Expect it.

-Loth

 

[LevonVeldspar]

My go-to plan for taking down the Jatu is gathering a mostly infantry army with small numbers of cav and archer support, then chasing/kiting a Jatu army into the mountain forest Noldor wilderness. If you make sure to engage when both of you are a) on a slope and b) in trees far enough to have your move speed lowered, you can almost guarantee ending up on an extremely hilly, densely wooded battle map. Then it's just a matter of holding a strong position as the Jatu struggle to advance through all the obstacles, ending up spread out and trickling into your lines in small, manageable chunks.

 

[el_miguel42]

wow some fantastic suggestion guys.  Thanks v much.  Ill definitely have to give the hilly mountain area near the noldors a try and im quite interested in the idea of using the horses to block.  Might have a play around with those.  maybe having two sets of cav, 1 griffons and 2 mtd men at arms and using the men at arms to do the dismounting trick.  Then depending on terrain I could still flank them using the griffons and the men at arms can dehorse some of the jatu with their greatswords.

 

[lothario]

My go-to plan for taking down the Jatu is gathering a mostly infantry army with small numbers of cav and archer support, then chasing/kiting a Jatu army into the mountain forest Noldor wilderness. If you make sure to engage when both of you are a) on a slope and b) in trees far enough to have your move speed lowered, you can almost guarantee ending up on an extremely hilly, densely wooded battle map. Then it's just a matter of holding a strong position as the Jatu struggle to advance through all the obstacles, ending up spread out and trickling into your lines in small, manageable chunks.

Yup. If you can manage getting this kind of terrain, then advancing to the enemy spawn point is unnecessary -- they will come to you already in pieces. In this case, I would hold my ground and keep everybody together -- dismount your Griffons to act as infantry guards and keep them on the ground for the whole fight.

Good post, Levon.
-Loth

 

[Shire]

1 Find a mountain
2 Sit all your guys on a steep side of it
3 Let any big army/spawn try attack you
4 Use archers if you want it over faster

 

[Heinz Solo]

having about 20 to 30 Empire Legionnaires high up in your army inventory will also help. you have to do it quickly, but set them to close formation and have them move forward a bit, send your cav to a flank and position archers behind your legionaires. you'll lose a few, but you can train more up whilst absorbing the initial charge.

and as everyone has said, being on the slope of a hill really slows down the speed of those deadly lance tips.

 

[el_miguel42]

Heinz, is that tactic for dehorsing them?

Speaking of anticav weapons.  Are there any decent spear or pikemen that could be used to nullify the initial charge?  Has anyone tried using pikemen or halbardeirs in a direct anti-cav role?  If so, are they effective?

I have noticed that beserkers and gladiators are very effective at dehorsing opponents in close combat, but in the initial charge they are easily cut down.

Also as a slight aside question.  What would people rate as the best heavy cavalry unit in the game?  That is attainable I might add.  While id love to have a few demonic magus' I wont be able to get them any time soon.

 

[lothario]

1) Empire Armored Pikemen and Dshar Warriors make excellent anti-cavalry units, meaning that they blunt an initial charge, stop the horses, and then proceed to whack the hell outta the cavalry unit they just halted. EAP's seem to be a little better than DW's in this regard... you can even see a good number of EAP's spawn with shields to go along with their pikes, so they are less vulnerable to archers. The EAP's who get halberds (there will be some) are a little more fragile (no shield), but can quickly dehorse enemy cavalry with extreme efficiency.

Those Empire Halberds are just lethal as hell vs. cavalry units, and not too shabby against slower infantry, either. Upper tier infantry will usually wreck halberdiers, as they can get inside striking range and ruin them with faster weapon speeds and so on. So mix your pikemen together with standard infantry to keep them alive longer. I've seen some success with about a 70/30 split of infantry/pikemen, but you can use 50/50 if you are anticipating a lot of cavalry charges -- maybe you're taking on a lot of Sarleon Lords, for example.

2) Berserkers and Gladiators are specialty units who do very well as "sweeper troops". A sweeper troop's job is to be fast as hell and incredibly deadly within a short range. They are pure offense, meaning that they do best to hang back before an initial charge, and after the enemy charge is slowed or stopped, THEN you unleash the hounds. In many ways, a Scorpion Assassin serves this function as well. Treat your squad of sweeper troops as a wild card you play after the battle has truly begun in earnest, in order to get the most out of them and keep them alive longer. You don't want these guys sitting out in front for an initial charge attack by the enemy... keep them back and safe until after first contact -- maybe parked behind a line of pikemen/infantry. Once the halberds have ground the enemy cavalry to a halt, the gladiators will tear them to pieces in VERY short order. They are very good troops -- they are very good at what they do... but they are not standard infantry, so don't try to play them like they are.

3) Best heavy cav in the game, IMO: Sarleon. Their commoner troops are just awful in comparison to the other factions, though. Really really rough to play as Sarleon just to get enough juice built up to get their knights. Tough faction to play.... bring vaseline. You're better off playing Pendor, really. Their knights have so much more flexibility once you get some knighthood orders started.

-Loth

 

[srulz]

What would people rate as the best heavy cavalry unit in the game?  That is attainable I might add.

Shadow Legion Centurions. Attained by conquering Cez/1 Qualis Gem anywhere else.

 

[LevonVeldspar]

I've found that there isn't any particular troop that absorbs a cav charge better than others since they all get knocked down with equal ease. The trick is in being prepared for the charge and then reacting properly. Have your troops standing as tightly together as possible in a formation (I prefer Shield Wall), try to let the initial shock of the charge hit you as close to the center of your line as possible. Once the cavalry gets bogged down by the other horses that come in behind them, order your men to charge and they'll swarm in from the flanks and hack down the trapped men and horses alike. I've found this strategy successful with any upper tier commoner infantry though of course, superior troops like Legionnaires or Huscarls will do better than their less prestigious peers.

As for the best Heavy Cav, I feel you can't go wrong with any of the mounted Orders. Some will have a small edge here or there but since you can upgrade their stats, it really comes down to whoever you think looks the best. 

 

[lothario]

As for the best Heavy Cav, I feel you can't go wrong with any of the mounted Orders. Some will have a small edge here or there but since you can upgrade their stats, it really comes down to whoever you think looks the best. 

Haha, good point. Never underestimate the importance of our precious videogame vanity. I'll get rid of really good equipment if I think it looks bad or silly.

*stares balefully at the Doom Mace*

-Loth

 

[AnddyiRaynor]

Yeah or I'll just take time to mod Pop so that it has items that look cooler after all I am the one who is suppose to save their poor souls.

 

[LevonVeldspar]

Being forced to use ugly equipment for the sake of stats alone is one of gamer life's wee tragedies. 

 

[AnddyiRaynor]

You're not really forced to with mount and blade because they make it so easy for you to edit things, now total war series is a whole different ball game but medieval and lower has ~ cheat thing that I forget what it is called. Units in that game are to gay looking for me too, well if they were gay they'd have better style I guess. Ugly is the word.

 

[LevonVeldspar]

I'm never sure what people mean when they say something looks gay.

 

[Shire]

What would people rate as the best heavy cavalry unit in the game?  That is attainable I might add.

Shadow Legion Centurions. Attained by conquering Cez/1 Qualis Gem anywhere else.

Does the game still upgrade NPC owned SLCs if you upgrade them in your castle? If that's the case, I'd never upgrade them until I conquered Empire and prisoned all lords who can spawn with those. Fk Javelin artillery made worse by upgraded stats.