Taking a castle: a tutorial by someone who plays M&B

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eugenioso

Regular
first of all, lets get some facts straight:

- you should have some decent amount of charisma to allow for a decently sized force.

- your army should predominantly be of heavy infantry, specially Huscarls, Rhodok late-tier Infantry, Swadian Infantry (knights do well, but generally they die too quick in sieges or in large numbers and are not easily retrained from scratch), and perhaps a few good archers as support (swadian and rhodok sharpshooters are great for sieges, thanks to their shields and armor)

with that prelude aside, lets begin.-

_so you are lvl 15 something, have a decently sized force, and want to serve your king and take a castle.
the first step is to be patient. if you try to get a force of 70 peasants, win a battle to level them to tier 2 and assault a castle with 90 men inside, you will lose. period. the key is to first prepare yourself accordingly to the situation

1.- what army are you gonna siege?

_from easiest to hardest, i number them like this: Nord, Rhodok, Khergit, Swadian, Vaegir. note that Khergit (nightmare) is set in middle, as the trick to defeating Khergits its not about the quality of troops, its about how many can get withing melee range of the skirmishers (their melee abilities are pretty useless, save perhaps for khergit lancers). Nords have lots of medium infantry in their castles, but their archers are generally too weak to provide truly effective cover fire. Rhodoks have their huge shields and spears, which makes archer counter fire very difficult to impose casualties on the defenders, and their crossbowmen are really powerful, though perhaps slow firing. Swadians take it up a notch from Nords and Rhodoks with their Swadian Knights and heavy infantry, who can really inflict pain on any melee attackers that get to the walls, and their crossbowmen are just as good as the Rhodok ones. the real winner in the siege defense aspect has to be the Vaegir armies. most of their castle garrison have bowmen, some of which include deadly Vaegir Archers and Marksmen, the deadliest archer troop ingame. their volleys will decimate low armored armies and shieldless armies dont stand a chance. if some men do manage to reach the walls, the vaegir guards and knights, with their poleaxes and battle axes, will dent even the fine plate armor of most leaders.

so, now that we know the armies, lets say which armies have advantages against other armies in sieges:

2.-what army is gonna perform the siege?

_there is no real easy/hard factor involving armies in siege assaults, so i will clarify the armies and their abilities at sieges.
The nords really have some advantages in sieges. most of their mid tier troops are armed with round shields, have swords and axes, and some have throwing weapons. their main advantage is that of simplicity and numbers. no army can resist an assault by 100 huscarls. their disadvantage is that even their top tier troops still wear "medium" armor (chainmail), which is not the best at stopping arrow fire. all in all, this is the army that most beginners might wanna play with in the castle assault aspect of the game. they perform adequately well against all defending armies in sieges, except perhaps against Swadians, whose heavier infantry will leave them sore by the time they reach the walls.

Rhodok armies have some advantages as well. first, their great shields will mean that they will render most bowfire useless against them, making them the odds on favorite for beating a Khergit-defended castle garrison. they also possess some great long range support in their crossbowmen armed with shields, and their armor, while not the best, is very effective at stopping swords and spears. their main disadvantage though, comes in their weaponry. all rhodok top tier troops come equipped with spears and pikes, and these are not handy in melee fights, where faster weapon swinging speed counts over the rather slow stabbing attacks of the Rhodoks. their main ability is to fight battles against Khergits (siege battles), since they hold advantages against them. against other armies, the rhodoks suffer as all other forces are better at melee infantry fighting skills. keep them as the force for Khergits, but use them for little else.

Khergits are the worst army to siege a settlement with. perhaps WORST is a strong word, perhaps i mean tricky. whatever i mean, they are hard to use to take settlements with. the Khergit advantages is that 3 out of 4 Khergit Thribesman that you  recruit come armed with bows. the obvious advantage is that the troops have a volume of fire matched only by large amounts of Vaegir Archers, but since they are recruits, its a cost-effective way of getting long range support swiftly. those are the only advantages that khergits have in sieges. their top tier melee unit, the Lancer, is armed with Lamellar armor, designed to diminish arrow impact inflicted upon them, but they are really hard to train to that point, or at least it takes long periods of time to train them. the standard unit they should use is the Horse archer tier, supported by lots of Khergit Lancers with Scimitars and bows. also some Khergits come armed with shields, but they only use them in melee, so dont expect them to deflect counter fire from castle garrisons with them. also, with the <slight> exception of their Lancers, Khergit melee skills are really unimpressive. if you have 100 Khergit skirmishers attack a 70 man garrison of, say, rhodoks, the rhodoks will win, and with little trouble. the key with Khergit sieging is to gather a lot of top tier Lancers, and not so many archers. the ratio of Lancers to archers should be 3:1. expect to lose a lot of men. your Khergits will manage to take down quite a few of the wall defenders, but never enough to totally win on their own. Khergits have no particular strengths against anyone, save perhaps the Nords. The nimble Nord archers make fine targets for your Khergit archers, and will manage to kill many of them, with little effective counter fire from the few weak Nord bows and arrows.

Swadians are a very balanced army to siege with, and are perhaps the "best" siegers in the game. the trick of a Swadian siege army is one of balance. the advantages of Swadians are their heavy infantry and knights, the best armored ingame, and also the melee skill of their infantry or dismounted knights, along with their great, good quality weapons, means that they will win most melee battles that develop around walls. they also have very adequate levels of long range offensive power with their Swadian Sharpshooters. they have no real weaknesses, save perhaps that their Sharpshooters are not as good in the melee department as, say, Rhodok Sharpshooters, but their job is to shoot and not fight, so that should be a small concern. to really be effective at sieges with Swadians, make sure that you never take one too many of one kind of troop and too few of another kind. dont take 50 Swadian knights against a garrison of 80 Nords. even if they win (its possible, and achieveable), if your apothecary skills are not high, the death ratio might be too great to effectively hold the castle, and if they try to hold against a siege the few survivors will fall eventually. the ratio of infantry/knights/ranged should be of 3:1:2. the infantry will do most of the fighting (and of the dying), while the knights, with their superior melee weapons and armor/skill, will break the deadlocks that might occur. all the while the crossbowmen should be firing at the wall defenders and thinning their ranks at a steady rate. as stated before, the Swadians have no proficiency at tackling any particular force at sieges, but they have no disadvantages like the other armies. again, balance is the key.

the Vaegirs have some peculiar aspects which make them differ from their Swadian counterparts. first, their archers are lethal. the Vaegir Marksmen are the best ranged ARCHER troops of the game. if you face 20 Marksmen agains 20 Nord veteran archers, or 20 Sharpshooters, their volume of fire and accuracy will bring down the enemy with few direct casualties. their disadvantages are not really disadvantages, they are more along the lines of "moderating attributes" to not make them overpowered. or rather its perhaps peculiarity, but who knows. their top tier infantry (the Vaegir Guard) are armed with heavy Lamellar armor, and two handed axes. in fact, 90% of all Vaegir troops are armed with axes of some kind. their archers have the same armor as their melee counterparts, and even the same battle/war variety of axes, but their melee skills are toned down because their archery training leaves them with little time to practice melee skills. their knights come equipped with two-handed poleaxes and heavy chain mail armor (medium armor), and are aptly skilled at swinging their weapons. as stated before, they are really just like Swadians, but instead of being balanced, the weight leans heavily on their archers, while the rest of the army catches up. to take castles with the Vaegirs requires, first of all, numbers. casualties due to bowfire will be high on any siege, but Vaegirs, who come with no shields, really suffer in that department. their footmen come with round shields, but their leather armor and spears are no good against the troops they fight on walls and against the arrows. the trick comes in numbers. amass a really large force of top Vaegir tier troops, and send them to the enemy. the archers will be doing some sterling work against the wall defenders, specially in large numbers, but they might suffer some counter fire which might thin their numbers. the infantry should lead the charge, and the ratio of infantry and knights should be close to 1:1 to keep the enemy on the ropes. a tactic with Vaegir siege armies is to bring a lot of the top tier Vaegir Marksmen with a relatively small/medium sized force of Vaegir Guards/Knights, and once the battle starts, keep the infantry/knights back while the archers fire for a small period of time (10-15 seconds tops), then send the infantry in. the volume of fire will kill quite a lot of men in the walls, and will allow the infantry a lot of breathing space in reaching the walls in the first place. if you bring enough Marksmen, you might thin them very much, even perhaps break some shields. the vaegirs have no particular advantage in siege assaults against any army, and if anything they are handicapped at it, since all armies have some sort of fire support, and against shieldless Vaegirs, casualties will always be high. the one army that Vaegirs should avoid assaulting are Khergits. their volume of fire will kill any archers that attempt to fire at them, and the infantry/knights will fall faster than flies to the relentless volleys of the Khergit archers. 

(CONTINUED NEXT POST)
 
Part 2:

<novice gamer>:Ok so ive done everything the guide requires! can i go siege the (insert faction name) castle now?!

_yes you may. but before you do, let me give you some tactics on what YOU should do during a siege.-

3.- what part will I play during the siege?

_first, you need to know about the healing skills of your character. character design is an important aspect in the game, and the right skills will allow greater chances of winning a siege.

a warrior in battle, if struck down by a non-blunt weapon attack is knocked unconscious, and if the side that knocked that warrior out wins the battle, they get him as a prisoner, but if the side of the knocked out warrior wins, they get him back as a soldier who is not dead, but is unfit for battle until he is fully restored. if you have a 50 men strong party, and half of them were knocked unconscious, and you fight another battle right away, only 25 men will be available for battle (the ones who are able to fight).

why is this important? because if you muster a large, top tier force of troops and attack a castle where you expect to suffer some casualties, most of those men will die if your wound treatment skill is not high enough. what wound treatment does is it gives a % chance to a warrior who has been fatally struck to be merely knocked unconscious only, thus allowing him to fight another day. so, if you have 100 Swadian Knights, siege, assault, and take a castle, you will be lucky if afterwards you have 50 men remaining.

pre-siege stage, your character should have at least maybe 3 or 4 in the wound treatment skill, increased by increasing your Intelligence attribute. also, your Charisma should be pretty high, as well as your Leadership skill. this will allow you to field a greater amount of men, and will also reduce the high wages of the top tier forces (Swadian Knights are particularly expensive to keep in your army)

In-Siege Role:

_the role that you will take in the siege is entirely dependant on what you built your character into.

Melee warriors: should be equipped with a stout shield, plate armor, plate helmet, and a sword. the tactic for Melee Warriors is to wait for a breach to be done by your warriors at the walls, thus allowing you to break into the castle and tackle any lone stragglers like archers at towers or some warrior stuck into a wall. until the breach happens keep your shield up.

Archers: Lots of armor (for an archer), a strong bow (not THE strong bow, just something stronger than a hunting bow will do), 2 slots of arrows, and maybe a sword, though you can usually find weapons at the feet of the walls or at the top of the ladders, so not necessary. stick close to your archers, preferably behind them, to let them absorb the arrows. carefully snipe at the wall defenders, concentrating on the enemy archers, then on melee fighters. once a breach is achieved, do not try to go inside right away, as enemy archers can still hit you and knock you out, and maybe even a lone warrior might try to attack you in melee should you be distracted. once the coast looks clear, make your way up the tower and carefully snipe at targets of opportunity. be careful with towers, as they might still contain archers and the AI always seems to see you as the priority threat.

The Apothecary: a really big, thick board shield, and whatever weapon you fancy (face it, it doesnt really matter since apothecary [healer] characters dont shine at melee). keep that shield up and watch your men take the wall. thats all the apothecary/commander needs to do. since he devotes virtually no time to fighting, his wound treatment skills and charisma/leadership should be higher than those of an archer or warrior, so his men will do all the hard job of taking the walls and such. if the battle doesnt end after a long time, send him inside to check for stuck enemies in walls and places. lure the stuck characters to open areas and kill them. if you feel skilled enough, attempt to fight the character yourself, if you are skilled.




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Well, thats it. this guide was written with the purpose of  showing how an average M&B player like myself does his thing. please, post to give oppinions, thank yous, **** yous, praises and whatever you really feel like saying. also, if you feel like you can add something to this guide, please write it.

thank you
 
Nice guide.

"what wound treatment does is it gives a % chance to a warrior who has been fatally struck to be merely knocked unconscious only, thus allowing him to fight another day."

You mean surgery there btw~
 
eugenioso said:
first of all, lets get some facts straight:

- you should have some decent amount of charisma to allow for a decently sized force.

You should have a decent amount of Renown. That will be more beneficial in the long run to having additional troops in your army.
 
Pretty handy guide I must say.

One thing I wanted to mention though is that when it comes to party size I personally focus purely on renown, I never raise my charisma above 9. And Leadership I put 1 or 2 points into but not as a high priority and only for the morale and wages benefit it gives when I have larger armies that are expensive. Every 5 renown increases your party size by 1 and getting 5 renown is way easier then leveling up just so you can spend a point on charisma that could have gone elsewhere.

When it comes to actual fighting I think perhaps your guide is best suited for people playing on much harder difficulty settings because for those that play on easier settings like myself allot of this seems rather over cautious. I have my battlesizer set to the game's default max of 100 but I have the damage to me and my allies lowered and yet when I enter siege battles I always make sure I'm the very first one up the ladder or on the siege tower and I run up and typically jump over the mass at the wall or squeeze through and instantly go for the ranged units on the walls while my army deals with the hordes at the top of the ladder/tower then I start picking on the melee guys from behind because they always focus their attention on your guys on the ladder first and formost intill you hit them then the ones you hit will turn around to fight you so you can fight them just a couple guys at a time even though theres a massive horde of enemies there. Doing it like this I usually end up taking out at least 75% of the defenders myself while my army does the rest. If I do get badly hurt at any point then I start being more cautious and start picking up ranged weapons and fighting from a distance instead.
 
Virmin said:
Pretty handy guide I must say.

One thing I wanted to mention though is that when it comes to party size I personally focus purely on renown, I never raise my charisma above 9. And Leadership I put 1 or 2 points into but not as a high priority and only for the morale and wages benefit it gives when I have larger armies that are expensive. Every 5 renown increases your party size by 1 and getting 5 renown is way easier then leveling up just so you can spend a point on charisma that could have gone elsewhere.

When it comes to actual fighting I think perhaps your guide is best suited for people playing on much harder difficulty settings because for those that play on easier settings like myself allot of this seems rather over cautious. I have my battlesizer set to the game's default max of 100 but I have the damage to me and my allies lowered and yet when I enter siege battles I always make sure I'm the very first one up the ladder or on the siege tower and I run up and typically jump over the mass at the wall or squeeze through and instantly go for the ranged units on the walls while my army deals with the hordes at the top of the ladder/tower then I start picking on the melee guys from behind because they always focus their attention on your guys on the ladder first and formost intill you hit them then the ones you hit will turn around to fight you so you can fight them just a couple guys at a time even though theres a massive horde of enemies there. Doing it like this I usually end up taking out at least 75% of the defenders myself while my army does the rest. If I do get badly hurt at any point then I start being more cautious and start picking up ranged weapons and fighting from a distance instead.

All "easy" players should be burned alive.  :twisted:

Why does it say in the guide that Khergit Lancers are hard to obtain? It's propably the fastest troop tree to level up in the game!
 
Tyfedo said:
All "easy" players should be burned alive.  :twisted:

Why does it say in the guide that Khergit Lancers are hard to obtain? It's propably the fastest troop tree to level up in the game!

Meh, I usually play on easy since I play to have fun and if I'm dieing and losing hordes of troops a lot, I'm not having fun.

Khergit lancers are easy to train, difficult to keep alive. you're much better off with the Khergit mounted archers as they tend to live longer.
 
DMcain said:
Tyfedo said:
All "easy" players should be burned alive.  :twisted:

Why does it say in the guide that Khergit Lancers are hard to obtain? It's propably the fastest troop tree to level up in the game!

Meh, I usually play on easy since I play to have fun and if I'm dieing and losing hordes of troops a lot, I'm not having fun.

Khergit lancers are easy to train, difficult to keep alive. you're much better off with the Khergit mounted archers as they tend to live longer.

But they can't survive in meelee combat, and you do need meelee units too.

E: Oh, and the game tends to get too easy in the late game on hard settings too!
 
No Khergits really survive melee, so whats the point in arguing? 

I don't really agree with the guide much, from the needs to the strengths of their armies.  This guide is more of a "in theory" guide because the game just doesn't play out like that. 
 
AA0 said:
No Khergits really survive melee, so whats the point in arguing? 

I don't really agree with the guide much, from the needs to the strengths of their armies.  This guide is more of a "in theory" guide because the game just doesn't play out like that.

I meant that the Horse archers don't survive in meelee. I assume you agree with that no?

 
Tyfedo said:
I meant that the Horse archers don't survive in meelee. I assume you agree with that no?
archers, in general, can't survive long in melee. it's not their thing. besides, if a horse archer is in melee, something has gone sideways in the battle anyway.

I hate lancers, both in my army and fighting them. Horse archers, on the other hand, are quite handy. They are mid-leveled troops, very mobile, decent hitting power and pretty damned hard to catch. Foot archers are mid to high level troops with limited mobility, good-excellent hitting power and very easy to catch. I hired 17 khergit tribesmen when i started, now at lvl 18, i still have ~10 of them trained up to Vet Horse Archer. In the same span of time, I have gone thru many, MANY foot archers.

In the end, it all boils down to personal preference. I prefer mounted archers with some heavy infantry and a bit of heavy cav.
 
eugenioso said:
_from easiest to hardest, i number them like this: Nord, Rhodok, Khergit, Swadian, Vaegir.
Really> I thought Nords were harder? Kergit was easier to siege for me. But tis' your guide.
 
Nords are really hard to siege. You can always bring that huge pack of Vaegir marksmen and shoot until the archers are dead. But, the infantry at the gap won't be. They have too many shields. Anyone you'll be sending up the ramp will be very quickly dead. You just need a huge amount of swadian sargeants/Vaegir guards to do the job, and still it comes with a huge cost. I haven't found any easy way to take a nord castle/city.
 
Tyfedo said:
Nords are really hard to siege. You can always bring that huge pack of Vaegir marksmen and shoot until the archers are dead. But, the infantry at the gap won't be. They have too many shields.

Oh, normally my Marksmen can shoot every last of them if I retreat and try again few times...
 
Great guide. Also, for melee warriors, I've found that throwing axes can come in handy during a siege, but sometimes it's not worth it because of your encumbrance.
 
Troll said:
Tyfedo said:
Nords are really hard to siege. You can always bring that huge pack of Vaegir marksmen and shoot until the archers are dead. But, the infantry at the gap won't be. They have too many shields.

Oh, normally my Marksmen can shoot every last of them if I retreat and try again few times...

That's right, but I call that abusing the game system.
 
well, ive been thinking about the guide i wrote, and decided to add a very old way of making castle sieges a little bit easier:

as soon as the battle starts (or as soon as the siege tower has lowered its ramp), immediately go running into the castle and right before making contact with the enemy, jump over them. after you land (probably at the bottom of the wall) you press the key to tell them to hold this position in your current location. this makes the men push through the mass of men instead of fighting at the top of the stairs/siege tower, and get to your current position. after they have breached through, order them to charge. the wall will almost certainly be won by your men.

i pondered on wether to write this at my guide (i consider this an exploit, just like the practice of loads of Vaegir Marksmen going into battle, firing their arrows, leaving, rejoining with full arrows) but now its here. enjoy the crap out of cheating the game.
 
I'm no good at fighting in M&B generally (getting my butt kicked training peasants when I move the diff to 100% :sad: ), but one thing that does work for me is headshooting when attacking in seige. You can off 10-15 fairly easily with practice and thereafter getting it up to 20+ (from a 25 bolt bag) can also be a reasonable longer term target. You can get one guy at the breach before your huscarls (or whatecer you are using for shock troops) hit the top of the ladder, and then stay at the foot of the castle headshooting the archers shooting their arrows into the side of your boys.

After your men get in, follow them and continue to give fire support as needed.
 
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