Türkish weapon questions

[Csatádi]

Hi,
I often make mods and I would need some info about some Turkish weapons. Could  you help me?

Sometimes Turks are associated a weapon which is called scimitar in English. Did the Turkish use them at all? What is the appropriate Turkish name for them?
I heard once two-handed versions were used by executioners. Is this true? Or did two-handed versions exist at all?

Another question is about yatagans. As I know they became popular only in the 18th century. Or at least most of the surviving pieces are from that period. I know about the yagatan of Suleyman of course, I'm just inquiring about its popularity.


Finally let me show you a video. I often participate in the making of such films and want to avoid mistakes.

 

[Kimmer]

Hi.

Click

Click

EDİT : also Clik

 

[Inanch-Bilge]

Kılıç, Pala and various other words are used, but these pics are little fantasy.

This is an example earlier curved swords, thats the sword of Mehmed II the Conqueror

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Slightly curved handle and blade.

This is what comes to people's mind when they hear the word "scimitar" early curved sabres are started to evolve into this around 16th century

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[Kaira]

What is the appropriate Turkish name for them

Kilij ( Kılıç ).

I'm just inquiring about its popularity.

It's very popular but it's not primary weapon. It's generally used for personal defense.



Examples for Yatagan.

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[Deli Paşa]

This site has too many weapons of Turkish arms. Kamas, Yatagans, Shamshirs(Şemşir.) or Kilijs. You find what you want this site.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/items.php?coll=2&cat=3

We don't have two handed version of this weapons. If we want use strong two handed weapons, we use axe or halberd. The Turks use too many different weapons type. But I never heard, they use two handed sword.

Ah, this is the common weapon of early Turkish cavalry: Ghulam. We said this weapon; gürz. Gürz means mace actualy.

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[Liathbeanna]

I heard once two-handed versions were used by executioners. Is this true? Or did two-handed versions exist at all?

No, Turkish soldiers never used two handed swords as far as I know. Executioners probably used weapons like two handed axe.

 

[Deli Paşa]

I'm just inquiring about its popularity.

It's very popular but it's not primary weapon. It's generally used for personal defense.

Yes. The Yatagans one of the most populer weapons in Turkish Army. And yes, this is not primary weapons. If soldier lost his primary weapon, he use yatagans. Maybe in the city, they don't carry their primary weapon. But they are always carried yatagans.

 

[Csatádi]

I'm just inquiring about its popularity.

It's very popular but it's not primary weapon. It's generally used for personal defense.

Yes. The Yatagans one of the most populer weapons in Turkish Army. And yes, this is not primary weapons. If soldier lost his primary weapon, he use yatagans. Maybe in the city, they don't carry their primary weapon. But they are always carried yatagans.

Could you show me sources? I mean I never seen yatagans on Türkish miniatures and on old drawings for example. And never seen on reconstructions either. They wear only daggers in large numbers.

Kılıç, Pala and various other words are used, but these pics are little fantasy.

Not fantasy. These were real weapons.
I just never met these in Turkish related military history materials. I guessed they might be some rarely used stuff or something like this.

I guess Pala is the name of the broad bladed sabres, right? Similar words are used in many languages for this weapon.

@Deli Paşa
Thanks for the ghulam/gürz. I didn't know it.


Anyway thanks guys, I can use google.
I need only nitpicking details which I didn't find yet.


Another question.
Was this type of shield (tarch) below generally used even in Anatolia or other parts? I know it is from the Balkan but for example in the With Fire and Sword game developers gave them even for eastern Türkish units. Akkerman is close to the Balkan but the eastern Türkish territories like Kafa or Azaq are not.
Could you send me some Türkish shield patterns for these shields? I downloaded every pictures from the net and have the Osprey books so I'm interested in materials printed in Turkey. Nice kalkan pictures welcomed as well but only books because I downloaded every kalkan picture from the net as well.

This shield:

 

[Allegro]

Hey Csatadi,

First of all let me thank you for the effort you put into your mod.

As for the scimitar; yes Turks did use it although the ones in those pictures look straight out of Aladdin cartoons. They look rather stereotypical and wouldnt be the first images to strike my mind when imagining historical Turkish swords. I honestly dont know the difference between a Cossack sabre, a Polish Karabela and a 17th century Ottoman scimitar. If you know how to read the decorations then you might be able to tell but I honestly cant. I am not at all familiar to depictions of Ottomans with two handed scimitars. I personally doubt there is a two handed sword technique in historical Turkish military tradition. Cannot speak for the executioners, they might have had equipments crafted exclusively for their execution use.

As for it's name; I guess they just called it "Kılıç", which means "sword" in Turkish, since the curvy sword was their default one and they probably didnt feel necessary to give it a seperate name.

As for yataghans; I dont know about it's factual popularity but I am sure every Turkish person is awfully familliar to depictions of Janissaries with yataghans hanging through their belts, one of which belongs to the founder of Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. I suppose any of us would naturally assume it's use was indeed popular.

As for the tarch shield; I have never seen depictions nor reeneactments of historical Anatolian military tradition involving this kind of shield. It's quite foreign to me.

Sidenote;
Hungarian sounds awfully like a Scandinavian language.

 

[Deli Paşa]

Those are most common shield type of Ottoman army. Most often cavalary use this type.

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This is early period Turkish infantry shield. I think its only use by irregular soldier.

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But i think this pictures in the chinese army. But seljuk period turks use this type too.

These shield what you show is the cavalry shield used by Deli's and Akinci's. They are irregular cavalary for abuse enemy border. Because of that the polish army copied this shield. You see this type for winged hussars of polish army.



Those are illisturation of Ottoman infantry and a officer. Those drawn by Abdulaziz's order.

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They had yatagan. The infantry use this secondary weapon. But the officer carry only yatagan. You'll see the diffirence of the handles.



We don't have any material of Turkish source. We have only miniaturs and osprey. The Abdulaziz's books is diffrent. Only 10-15 drawning in this book. I saw this book in my high school. But in the internet, i don't find it. Maybe 2-3 pictures only.



Edit: Your welcome. But, Ghulam name of the units. Gürz is the weapons name. Don't get wrong it.

 

[Inanch-Bilge]

They might be real swords but certainly not Ottoman swords, second one looks a bit like Karabela, a Polish variety probably Tatar inspired.

As for that shield, its probably mostly used by forces from Balkansi eastern forces usually used round shields of varying sizes, made out of leather or sometimes metal.

Yatagan probably started to gain popularity around 17th century.

 

[Fusuy]

Wikipedia is a nice source of things like this.

here you are:

Turkish Sicimtar, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilij

Yatağan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yatagan

 

[Lennon.]

Maybe you should get professional help.

Check out this Facebook page, it's the representive page of a historical,martial art guild called Kuzgun Akademi. You can contact them. They seem to (and they actually do) know a lot of thing about Turkish combat.

You can also visit here. http://www.kuzgunakademi.com

 

[Csatádi]

Maybe you should get professional help.

Check out this Facebook page, it's the representive page of a historical,martial art guild called Kuzgun Akademi. You can contact them. They seem to (and they actually do) know a lot of thing about Turkish combat.

You can also visit here. http://www.kuzgunakademi.com

Thanks. Yes, I need answers from professionals.


Thanks for everybody the answers.

 

[Inanch-Bilge]

Maybe you should get professional help.

Check out this Facebook page, it's the representive page of a historical,martial art guild called Kuzgun Akademi. You can contact them. They seem to (and they actually do) know a lot of thing about Turkish combat.

You can also visit here. http://www.kuzgunakademi.com

Thanks. Yes, I need answers from professionals.


Thanks for everybody the answers.

These guys are just martial actors, better go this place

http://www.cebehane.com/forum/

There are many guys at there creating actual replicas of historical swords by hand, they're highly knowlodged at all the details.

 

[Artizan]

I'm just inquiring about its popularity.

It's very popular but it's not primary weapon. It's generally used for personal defense.

Yes. The Yatagans one of the most populer weapons in Turkish Army. And yes, this is not primary weapons. If soldier lost his primary weapon, he use yatagans. Maybe in the city, they don't carry their primary weapon. But they are always carried yatagans.

Could you show me sources? I mean I never seen yatagans on Türkish miniatures and on old drawings for example. And never seen on reconstructions either. They wear only daggers in large numbers.

Kılıç, Pala and various other words are used, but these pics are little fantasy.

Not fantasy. These were real weapons.
I just never met these in Turkish related military history materials. I guessed they might be some rarely used stuff or something like this.

I guess Pala is the name of the broad bladed sabres, right? Similar words are used in many languages for this weapon.

@Deli Paşa
Thanks for the ghulam/gürz. I didn't know it.


Anyway thanks guys, I can use google.
I need only nitpicking details which I didn't find yet.


Another question.
Was this type of shield (tarch) below generally used even in Anatolia or other parts? I know it is from the Balkan but for example in the With Fire and Sword game developers gave them even for eastern Türkish units. Akkerman is close to the Balkan but the eastern Türkish territories like Kafa or Azaq are not.
Could you send me some Türkish shield patterns for these shields? I downloaded every pictures from the net and have the Osprey books so I'm interested in materials printed in Turkey. Nice kalkan pictures welcomed as well but only books because I downloaded every kalkan picture from the net as well.

This shield:

That kind of shield is called hungarian style wing shield, more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_shield
Mostly used by serbian converts in ottoman army, usually favored by Deli cavalry. the ones with corners are infantry version and rounder ones are used by cav. yataghans were not very favourite until late 17th century, but still used by infantry, especially janissary before. 2-handed swords were never used by Turks, here you can see a broader executioner kilij(top one):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Imperial_Armoury_Topkapi_Istanbul_%287%29.JPG/1280px-Imperial_Armoury_Topkapi_Istanbul_%287%29.JPG
which is still one handed. kilij or kilinj means sword in Turkish and "pala" is the actual name of this sword which is referred to as kilij by foreigners.
The different example of shield shown by Deli Paşa actually belongs to north african moors, not turks.(it was also used by spaniards later)