Syrian Civil War (round 2)

[Sly]

Unlike you guys, some turks especially living near syrian-turkish border and some people who are in contact with them can really see and understand what is going on in the villages that you keep talking about.I include myself in the 2nd group of peop btw.I mean, not everyone gets the news from ''Erdoğan's state-controlled media''. War and its drama are closer than it appears for us. Things are so close that you can watch everything using binoculars. We know da ****, okay ? So don't boss around like you know da ****.

 

[Mad Vader]

Sarah Palin can see Russia from her house.

 

[Mandalorian]

If Al-Qaeda is terrorist, PKK/YPG is at least that much terrorist.

I define terrorism like: "The intentional targeting of civilians with attacks meant to cause terror, and thereby lead to social or political change"

I define civilian like: "A human who is not a fighter, nor an agent, nor directly involved in supporting a state or group's ability to fight".

Does the PKK qualify as a terrorist group under my definition? I've looked for info on them, but I've only found them targeting troops and police so far.

Well at 2016 they have attacked and killed 36 civilians with a terrorist attack in the middle of Ankara, the Turkish capital.  They have also bombed a mosque at the city of Bursa and killed 1 civilian.

 

[Cioss]

Not sure if it has already been posted on this topic, but here is some stuff for those people who can think with their brain.

In CIA's website, you can find something called World Factbook. In that page you can choose a country and get detailed information. Let's try it for these:

Turkey: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tu.html
Iran: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html
Iraq: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/iz.html
Syria: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sy.html

Under the Terrorism tab you can find valuable information. I will zoom some info for you. :*

隐藏: Iraq-Terrorism-Home Based

Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) (Kongra-Gel):
aim(s): establish Kurdistan, comprising territory in northern Iraq, eastern and southeastern Turkey, northern Syria, and northwestern Iran
area(s) of operation: headquartered in northern Iraq in the Qandil Mountains, where it has strongholds in As Sulaymaniyah and Arbil governorates and on the Iraq-Iran border; stages attacks inside Turkey from Iraq, which has drawn Turkish forces on occasion into Iraq to combat Kurdistan Workers Party fighters; enjoys escalating influence in Iraq in recent years as leaders deepen ties to Iraqi political leaders and religious parties throughout the country, especially in the areas of Sinjar and Rabi'ah in Nineveh Governorate, northwestern Kirkuk, and Tuz Khurmatu District in Salah ad Din Governorate; engages heavily in recruiting Iraqi Kurdish youths

隐藏: Iran-Terrorism-Foreign Based

Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) (Kongra-Gel):
aim(s): establish Kurdistan, which comprises territory in northwestern Iran
area(s) of operation: has maintained an operational presence under the name Party of Free Life of Kurdistan (PJAK) since circa 2004; targets Iranian Government personnel, primarily in the northwest in the Kurdish-populated region; PJAK's attack tempo has ebbed since 2011

隐藏: Turkey-Terrorism-Foreign Based

Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) (Kongra-Gel):
aim(s): establish Kurdistan, which includes land in eastern and southeastern Turkey
area(s) of operation: PKK attacks have surged since 2016 in the southeast and spilled over to the country's western cities; targets primarily tourist locations and government, military, and security personnel and facilities; in October 2016, the Turkish Government reported thousands of PKK fighters had been killed and over 600 Turkish security force members had lost their lives and Human Rights groups reported hundreds of civilian deaths since the conflict between the Turkish Government and PKK resumed in July 2015, following a 2-1/2-year ceasefire; outlawed in Turkey

隐藏: Syria-Terrorism-Foreign Based

Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) (Kongra-Gel):
aim(s): establish Kurdistan, which comprises territory in northern Syria
area(s) of operation: operational in the north combating ISIL, primarily in the Kurdish-populated region known as Rojava and Syrian Kurdistan; Salih MUSLIM Muhammad leads Kurdistan Workers Party's Syrian wing, the Syrian Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD); majority of fighters inside Syria are Syrian Kurds, along with Kurds from Iran, Turkey, and Iraq

Soooo, let's see what do we have here:

1- PKK is a bloody terrorist organization, caused so many deaths and chaos in the region for decades.
2- PYD(by military, YPG)(and now with the new name, SDF) is the Syrian wing of the PKK, which makes them also terrorists.
3- U.S. acknowledged that these all groups are terrorists.
4- U.S. arming these terrorists to the teeth for "fighting ISIS".

After all these, if you are taking your head out of the ignorance-cave and saying that you are supporting SDF, sorry but you are just an *******. What? You offended?

What if I say I support mass-murderers and mass-shooters in U.S. and/or saying it like "They are fighting the corrupt society with this!" or calling "9/11 bombers were freedom fighters who have right to strike U.S." it'd be only a little part of the show.

Cut it out with the hypocrisy! FFS!

 

[Ayro]

Facts

Some butt-hurt moderator couldn't take the facts and punished him without answer? Did anbody have something say about these facts?

Admit it, America created ISIS because they needed a reason to arm kurdish terrorist organisation.

1-Create a Islamic Terrorist State
2-Have it capture most of the land in region
3-Make them kill civilians with terrorist attacks in West.
4-????
5-Armed Kurdish terrorists instantly become protector of these lands, profit.

Do you know the biggest income of the PKK and YPG? It is illegal trade of synthetic drugs that killed thousands of people, what a great state(!)

隐藏

 

[Duh]

He was muted for flaming - the rest of his post was fine, otherwise it would have been deleted.

If you would like to know more about ISIS this may be an interesting read:
http://web.stanford.edu/group/mappingmilitants/cgi-bin/groups/view/1

 

[Erozbey]

According to the TSK(Turkish Armed Forces) 394 terrorists were neutralized, 340 targets of terrorist organizations were destroyed. Good news.

 

[Ayro]

https://twitter.com/afrinoperasyon/status/957207211998109696

Turkish Special Force soldiers saves a lynched Kurdish terrorist from FSA rebels.

 

[Marko͘]

'Saving', fam what do you think he'll be used for once his saviours are out of there.

 

[Ayro]

He will be jailed as a war prisoner and when he got out, he will live under Esad regime as a Syrian citizen if he won't think to blow himself to kill civilians. We are using FSA rebels, they won't stay there forever. Erdogan will admit Esad's victory.

 

[pentagathus]

The underlying reasons for people supporting oppressive regimes are often completely unrelated to factually-derived sources. A lot of trump supporters for example just want a strong populist leader who can make them feel inspired and proud to be wage slaves to the republic. He feeds off deep insecurity which no amount of evidence can properly dissuade. Trump himself is a terrible example of that which he represents and there are tons of interviews where his most loyal supporters will say something to the effect of "yeah, he's a liability to our cause." The ideal of the american god-emperor gives a lot of people raging comfort hardons, and trump is the closest thing to that which America's bland neocon political binary has seen in a very long time.

Not at all on topic but lolwut? If wanting a strong populist leader was the only pre-requisite of supporting Trump then almost all of america would be Trump supporters. Who wouldn't want a strong leader?
Seriously, acting as if his supporters and voters were just completely irrational is wrong and frankly stupid.

 

[Erozbey]

Turkish forces at Bursaya mount as new positions were seized.

https://twitter.com/huseyinbozan/status/957578313094057984

 

[İşbara Alp]

Turkey does not kill civilians or not occupied. In addition, PYD-YPG is the Syrian extension of the PKK.

 

[Jhessail]

Oh my sides, this is a gold mine! I'm going to grab a drink and start dissecting the last three pages. Thank you Turkish posters for crawling out of your sub-forum, it's been so boring here lately!

 

[crodio]

I would like to interject for a moment to state my full support for the Kurdish cause against the imperialist dictatorship of Earth dog anus

 

[Marko͘]

You might want to re-read the rules in that case:  https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,12250.0.html

As for Duh's knowledge of the current combat situation, it's probably a lot more objective than someone directly on the border. You tend to think differently if your house is being shelled.

 

[Jhessail]

I would like to interject for a moment to state my full support for the Kurdish cause against the imperialist dictatorship of Earth dog anus

USER WAS MUTED FOR THIS POST.
Thanks for contributing!

I do believe this thread needs more harsh rules regarding the discussion...

Nonsense. Just like Erdogan, you just want censorship because your fragile national ego is at stake. Dude, it's silly to get emotionally invested in a nation state just because you were born in it. Luckily Turkey hasn't banned Internet completely yet so that we filthy foreigners can still pollute your minds with heretical ideas.

There's no Leo2 tank modernization process going on in Turkey right now, the last operation has been halted in favor of Altay. This is just playing to domestic politics.

Stop lying!

The Turkish government would like to upgrade its fleet of Leopard 2 battle tanks by providing them with better armor and a modern defensive system to protect them from smaller missiles and explosive devices. The improvements are aimed at eliminating one of the tanks' weaknesses -- a shortcoming that resulted in the Turkish army's having lost several tanks and troops in the battle against Islamic State (IS). For months, Turkey has been in talks with the German arms manufacturer Rheinmetall about the enhancements. But without an export license granted by the German government, Rheinmetall isn't permitted to move ahead with the contract. And thus far, Berlin has refused to approve the sizeable deal. That, after all, would contradict the more stringent approach to Turkey that Gabriel announced on July 20 last year. "The more sizeable requests that Turkey has made have been put on hold," the foreign minister repeated in September.

So sorry if my earlier post misled you. It's an upcoming deal that has been frozen, not an ongoing process. Furthermore, my whole point was to refute your compatriots claim that the whole NATO is eagerly supporting Turkey in its invasion.

It's strong enough to annihilate small asymmetric groups at her border.

Questionable since ISIS apparently destroyed more than ten tanks back in December 2016 but again, not the point that was being discussed.

Turkish army managed to finish of pkk in 1999. Through 90's was actually the most brutal oppression era for the Kurds and it worked. Their leaders got caught at 99 and their asses kicked so hard, they declared that they will halt their operations and establish a unilateral ceasefire. But surprisingly, at 2002 Erdogan got elected and right after Turkey declined US request to transfer her troops from Turkey to Iraq pkk re-established themselves in Iraq. This followed by a peace progress founded by AKP elites. Which eventually Erdogan enjoyed full Kurdish support meantime pkk buried weapons and bombs to cities, recruited the youth and got ready for the end of the ceasefire. When the time came, the towns with major Kurdish population got destroyed. Towns literally became a warzone.

Wow, quite a lot to unpack there.

First, the Turkish "advance" in 1999 was largely the result of massive human rights violations committed by both the military and the police including mass arrests, forced re-locations and summarily executions, and while PKK was weakened, it wasn't defeated. Because you cannot destroy asymmetric terror groups hiding among civilian population with only the stick - you need a carrot too. Öcalan was only caught because Turkey knew his location once he hid in the Greek embassy in Kenya and there is credible evidence (credible enough that NY Times reported it) that it was the CIA who helped the Turkish MIT to catch him at the Nairobi airport. So you shouldn't feel too proud about it. But to my knowledge PKK didn't declare a cease fire in 2000, they just went inactive as they reorganized. It would have been a good time to use the carrot to sway popular support away from them, maybe allow teaching Kurdish language in schools and give Kurdish areas limited autonomy as well as remove the jackboot of the military but oh well.

US has never asked Turkey to send troops to Iraq - that was the Iraqian prime minister al-Abadi. Erdogan actually said it himself. US repeatedly asked Turkey to remove those troops and when Turkey refused and later in 2016 sent in more troops, Iraq took the matter to a UN emergency meeting. So I don't know what the **** you're smoking there.

As for the cease fires, Turkey violated the first one in 2004 which led to PKK becoming active again. PKK declared a second cease fire in 2006 and then Turkey sought out the third cease fire in 2012. Whole matter is made more confusing by the existence of the more hawkish TAK group that rivals PKK. Anyway, the peace process fell apart because Turkey wouldn't implement the reforms that PKK had asked for. Then Erdogan started attacking HDP and ensured that outright violence would commence once again.

Now, all of this information can be Googled very easily. There's the Wikipedia article on PKK and Öcalan, and there are dozens and dozens of news reports. Don't try to counter this by posting some random Turkish blog post. Put at least some effort into your response, please. Though if you really want to get into an in-depth debate about the PKK, you should make a new thread for it.

Afrin is not kurdish.

The map is done by BBC to approximately show areas with high-density Kurdish populations. It's also done based on incomplete census data from before the Syrian civil war started. Using it to justify invasion of a contested border town is pretty silly.

The Russian Army is going to Aleppo at the moment. The Turkish Army is succeeding.

If you are talking about the Russian-led ceasefire negotiations for Ghouta, then uh, they didn't even get all opposing groups to the discussion table in Vienna. And it certainly doesn't mean that the Russian Army is going to Aleppo, especially since Putin announced months ago that the Russian operation is largely finished. Assad's troops captured Aleppo back in 2016 and have held it since and as part of their support, Russia has had small infantry elements in Aleppo. As for the Turkish Army, they are currently fighting over a mountain. "Succeeding" is a such an elusive term. What are the Turkish objectives anyway?

Turkey does not kill civilians. Because Turkey is helping 3 million Syrian refugees. This shows the mercy of the Turkish state.

Turkey does not kill civilians or not occupied. In addition, PYD-YPG is the Syrian extension of the PKK.

Helping refugees does not preclude a state from killing civilians. Turkey is killing civilians and has a long history of killing civilians.

Also, USA killed 2 million civillians in Iraq

Completely irrelevant. This is not a "Iraq war 2003-x" thread.

Luke Coffey of Heritage Foundation says

Jesus **** dude. Heritage Foundation is a super-conservative "think tank" that promotes right-wing foreign policy. They are the sort of people who happily supported the Iran-Contra Affair and still cry themselves to sleep since US didn't nuke North-Korea in 1951 or North-Vietnam in 1969. The Henry Jackson Society is basically it's British counterpart, where people who dream of recreating the British Empire apply to work for. Anything that even faintly smells of "Leftist" to them is a colossal boogeyman that needs to wiped off the Earth. But of course, those are the only sort of people who support Turkey in its attempt to wipe out Kurds from the planet, so I guess you'll have to accept them anyway.

Now for the cavalcade of butthurt TurkTurks:

Yeah sure sure. Also Bin Laden was a man of justice. He never killed a single human. lol

Kurdish circle jerk among western media makes me sick.Most of you guys nothing know about regions historical,politic,social,economic situation.We already know Erdogan is a narcissistic,power hungry little child and we already know he is using operition for his own interests but it doesn't change the YPG/Pkk is a savage terrorist organisition makes trouble in the region for very long time.

Some butt-hurt moderator couldn't take the facts and punished him without answer? Did anbody have something say about these facts? Admit it, America created ISIS because they needed a reason to arm kurdish terrorist organisation.

Ahh, when will Europe's biased views end? Being blind to all of the truth must be hard. I dont think you can be convinced through sentences. You should see it yourself. You can believe that we are killing freedom fighters. Whatever.

You are qualifying "Turkish invasion" for this peace operation and your source is a terrorist (YPG/PKK) spokesmen. You are really a blind ignorant and terrorist supporter.

Turkish Invasion
None of those links are talking about an invasion.

Nobody is arguing whether PKK is a terrorist organization or not. You're just making yourself look childish by not even understanding what the discussion is about. And Ayro, you asked why nobody had anything to say about the "facts" that the TurkTurk above you vomited on the screen - nobody had time to respond because your post came less than 2 hours after his. It's a pretty tall claim of hubris to decry that nobody could debunk him if given less than two hours time to do so. And maybe this is because of the whole ESL thing - though I'm an ESL speaker myself - but invasion is a perfectly acceptable neutral term.

But don't worry, Jhessail is here to answer him:

Not sure if it has already been posted on this topic, but here is some stuff for those people who can think with their brain.

Oh wow, that video that has quote-mined snippets of US officials public speeches certainly convinced me. Wait, it didn't. It's especially funny that - just like every conspiracy theory nutcase and fanboy of fascism - you scream about "think with your brain" when your whole media consumption comes from one source with massive and obvious bias.

1- PKK is a bloody terrorist organization, caused so many deaths and chaos in the region for decades.

Yes, again, nobody is disputing that. Of course, one could ask why was PKK established in the first place but that's neither here or there.

2- PYD(by military, YPG)(and now with the new name, SDF) is the Syrian wing of the PKK, which makes them also terrorists.

Not so. Unless you can show that the leaders of PYD and/or YPG and/or SDF are the same people or routinely collaborate. Obviously there are ties between the groups and again, nobody is contesting that.

3- U.S. acknowledged that these all groups are terrorists.

Nope, only PKK. And hey, Russia doesn't think that even PKK is a terrorist group!

4- U.S. arming these terrorists to the teeth for "fighting ISIS".

Probably because nobody else was doing anything.

After all these, if you are taking your head out of the ignorance-cave and saying that you are supporting SDF, sorry but you are just an *******. What? You offended?

You made multiple false or misleading claims to arrive to this conclusion. Congratulations, you fail at basic debate.

What if I say I support mass-murderers and mass-shooters in U.S. and/or saying it like "They are fighting the corrupt society with this!" or calling "9/11 bombers were freedom fighters who have right to strike U.S."

Once again, nobody is contesting that PKK is a terrorist group, just like Al-Qaeda. Mass shooters in US do not generally have a political agenda, though some do. Though I can't think of a single group or individual in the West who was fighting to establish a country since ETA and IRA ceased their violence. And that's something you ultranationalistic types should understand:
-peace in Ireland and peace in Spain was not achieved by oppression and violence.

Unlike you guys, some turks especially living near syrian-turkish border and some people who are in contact with them can really see and understand what is going on in the villages that you keep talking about.I include myself in the 2nd group of peop btw.I mean, not everyone gets the news from ''Erdoğan's state-controlled media''. War and its drama are closer than it appears for us. Things are so close that you can watch everything using binoculars. We know da ****, okay ? So don't boss around like you know da ****.

Oh wow. Wasn't expecting someone to pull out that card. You can see over the border from your house? That certainly qualifies you. Extra points for using the black street-lingo of "da" instead of "the". Thanks for the worthless contribution to the thread.

I'm not going to jump into the discussion after all these posts. I don't want to restart definition battle. Problem is that you do not see them as terrorists. The term I used is to show that. Mandalorian and UXC explained the situation very well but you are clearly not on the right track.

Dude, they explained nothing and they were lying and misleading in their posts. Also, don't post anything if you're not willing to actually engage. Or do whatever you want I guess, until Erdogan decides that Turks cannot be allowed access to Taleworlds.

I want to discuss Syria's situation with people can think with their brain and not using papers to blur the truth. If anyone of you besides trolls wants to add something they can quote me.

Translation: I want to participate in a pro-Turkey circle-jerk where nobody contradicts the information I'm being fed by Turkish state media (and yes Hürriyet Daily News is part of that machine). The irony of a Turkish poster earlier whining about pro-Kurd circle-jerk when a dozen TurkTurks instantly created one here the moment someone linked my first response in the thread over to the Turkish sub-forum. But I bet you can't even see that

If we consider the US "invasions" in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, it is clear that we have more peaceful thoughts.

Again, completely irrelevant and largely meaningless. Not to mention that the US invasion of Afghanistan actually led to a democratic country, whereas Turkish invasion of Syria will only lead to more destabilization. And if this Turkish invasion is "peaceful" via - WE BRING PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER - then the US invasion of Syria is equally peaceful.

I mean the last link in your previous message, when they are saying civilians are being killed, their source is terrorist spokesmen. Are your reliable source is terrorists?

Kurd sources are just as reliable as Turkish sources. When Turkish army claims 304 terrorists killed, I just roll my eyes. It's completely meaningless. It's the same when Russia claims X terrorists killed or when US claimed Y terrorists killed. Such numbers rarely, if ever, correlate with reality. Literally every war and conflict is proof of that.

Absolutely. At least we don't have a lie to fight with states that are miles away from us. The Turkish invasion is aimed at protecting its borders. Syria has no meaning for us. Kurdish terrorists in Syria are a threat to us. That's why we're gonna kill each one.

Wow, at least a little honesty. Yes, Turkey is going to try wipe out the Kurds. Because they can't get away with actual genocide like with the Armenians back in 1915-1923, so Turkey will have to settle with destroying the infrastructure of Kurdish groups and hope that ISIS/DAESH or Assad can finish the job for them.

One side is an independent and recognized state (Republic of Turkey), we are committed to international agreements, legal principles etc.

What about all those jailed journalists? What about all those Amnesty International reports dating back to the 1970s? Just off the top of my head.

But other side is just a terrorist organization (YPG/PKK). But you are talking about like these two sides are equal. First of all, you should understand, independent and recognized states and terrorist organizations cannot have equal representation or right to speak. You are supporting a terrorist organization against Republic of Turkey, congratulations you are a complete dishonest terrorist supporter, i hope terrorists kill your loved ones and you maybe learn to empathize.

Except YPG is not PKK and even PKK tried to avoid civilian casualties in its terror attacks. And with that kind of rhetoric, I can see why there hasn't been any serious attempts at peace in a while. Especially funny because Erdogan intentionally tanked the peace talks in order to become Sultan of Turkey. Yes, your beloved President is the main reason why PKK become active again. Blame him rather than the Kurds. But obviously it's easier for you to hate a group of other people instead of admit the truth about someone who is part of your own group.

Erdogan can not be the leader in the region. You know that. We know that. There are criticisms even in the Arab countries - like the Palestinians - that Erdoğan has always been backing up. I used to think like you, if I didn't live in Turkey. Trust me, the words you think of as propaganda are real for us. Like the Americans, we don't have to go into war on a lie. Many people lost their lives because of PKK-YPG. It's not even a war for us. Even I lost my kin because of the terrorists. As I said before, our goal is not to expand our territory. As you say, Erdogan may have personal goals but he will never get the leadership he expects. The only expectation of the Turkish people is to destroy the terrorists at our border. For us this is not a war but a necessary operation.

Someone should tell Erdogan that. Because he is definitely still aiming to get Turkey to rule Middle-East and have him as the God-King of Turkey. As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry you lost a family member in 2001 but come on dude, that was 16 years ago. There have been 2 different peace initiatives since then. If you insist on hating Kurds and thus supporting egoistic politicians playing that card, then you're just ensuring that the circle of violence will keep going. Just take a look at Israel and Palestine to see how well that goes. And if you think it's impossible, it's been done in Ireland and in Spain. Germany healed from the years of terror attacks by the RAF (not British, the anarchist/communist terror group). Even Colombia now has tentative peace with FARC though it's far too early to say how that will go.

Duh you live in germany, miles away from battlefield. You don't have any idea about border's sitution, for example İşbara Alp's house only 6 km away from border. You know nothing but he knows the danger. Our country rights in this case. . It must be so easy for you, cuz your country is not under danger, I hope it never be. Get a beer and keep calm, it is not your concern. Btw the punishments that you give, they are not objective.

I agree.

Thanks to the power of Internet, we can all participate in this discussion as much as we want. And just as Marko pointed out, distance often brings in objectivity.

 

[Calradianın bilgesi]

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[KhergitLancer80]

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[Wuthrad]

@Sofia Meh, yeah, we have learned a great truth right now. Censorship, not only in Turkey. If I did not know the truth, I would believe what they said, because it is realistic. Believe me, my friend, this does not reflect the truth of what you write and it's just a terror propaganda. I hope you understand.


And you also confess, informations is spreading from the internet, and some bad intentions are spreading false information by turning this into an advantage.

PKK/PYD is a terrorist organization. And the region should be cleared of terror. Yes, maybe civilians are killed, but not intentionally.

Also, the civilians have already been killed for a long time, for example: Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Syria, Egypt, Palestine...

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