Syrian Civil War (round 2)

[Kara Bey]

Sofia Johanna, I do not take you seriously. I think you sleep.

-Turkish Army is killing terrorists at the moment.
-The West Media is uncomfortable.
-Americans do not cry. The US can not support YPG any more.

 

[Temuzu]

YPG is killing civilians.

So is Turkey. What's the problem here?

 

[Jhessail]

Sofia Johanna, I do not take you seriously. I think you sleep.

-Turkish Army is killing terrorists at the moment.
-The West Media is uncomfortable.
-Americans do not cry. The US can not support YPG any more.

Turkish Army is using it's "rebel" puppet group to invade Kurd controlled areas that have been relatively safe and stable (as much as any area can be called that in a country torn apart by multi-faceted civil war) and, as confirmed by Syrian Human Rights Watch, is using artillery and tanks to carelessly bomb anything that might shelter YPG units, causing civilian casualties. Everybody is uncomfortable with this except Russia, because all the casualties that Turkey will sustain among its puppet-rebel groups and its own armed forces, plus the casualties it causes to YPG, help the Russian cause of keeping Assad in power for as long as possible. Erdogan is literally ruining his own program for ending the Syrian civil war just so he can be a bigger **** towards the Kurds than any other Turkish leader has been since the times of Armenian genocide.

As for the US, i used AL-JAZEERA as a source. If you don't believe a Qatar news media, I can safely say that you're a completely lost cause. US hasn't stopped supporting YPG, the only sources claiming so are Turkish media from last November. Actual US sources only say that they readjusted support levels in Syria at that time. What that actually means, nobody knows. But since your Erdogan-controlled media is lying about nearly everything else, I'd take such claims with a big pinch of salt. Especially since American special forces have remained with YPG in Syria and are there at this very moment.

Oh and just to put a cherry on top of this **** cake, Deputy Prime Minister Bekir Bozdag just threatened US.

If the US wants to "avoid a confrontation with Turkey - which neither they nor Turkey want - the way to this is clear: they must cut support given to terrorists", Bozdag told Turkish broadcaster A Haber. "Those who support the terrorist organisation will become a target in this battle. The United States needs to review its soldiers and elements giving support to terrorists on the ground in such a way as to avoid a confrontation with Turkey," he said.

Now he was obviously once again just jacking off their base by posturing as a strong man and riling up the idiotic nationalists. But he forgot that international media can and does still access Turkish news.

Sofia Johanna, I do not take you seriously. I think you sleep.

Don't worry buddy. The last thing I care about in this world is your opinion on me.

EDIT: fixed few typos.

 

[ErkutErdem]

I do believe this thread needs more harsh rules regarding the discussion. Similar to /r/syriancivilwar/, or these kinda threads will keep going on 3,4,5,6. with no changes. We could all go back to having fun with teenagers brainwashed with subjective high-school level history knowledge (I know its really fun, i do enjoy it too), or keep an orderly thread and discuss like adults.

 

[Mad Vader]

That's praiseworthy, but stick a fool in a thread and people go berserk. As this is predictable, it is the fool that needs to be muted for inadvertent trolling.

 

[Harkon Haakonson]

So many little bits by Kara Bey are delicious signature quote stuff. Jhess was even nice enough to break them into little bits for convenience. It's a real dilemma between turkturk awkward statements and displaying Jacob's black supremacism.

 

[Mandalorian]

And more propaganda lies from Dr. Goebbels at the Ministry of Truth. He conveniently ignored my post completely.

NATO-ally Germany has announced that it has ceased the modernisation of Turkish Leopard 2 tanks

There's no Leo2 tank modernization process going on in Turkey right now, the last operation has been halted in favor of Altay. This is just playing to domestic politics.

Maybe but it certainly is not as strong as you think.

It's strong enough to annihilate small asymmetric groups at her border.

Turkish Army has not managed to make PPK disappear despite decades of brutal repression. Your army of peace is currently haphazardly shelling villages and towns, killing civilians, while your state-controlled media lies to the Turkish people about it. Every statement I've made can be verified from multiple foreign media sources. Your claims are only supported by conspiracy theories and Turkish state-controlled media.

Turkish army managed to finish of pkk in 1999. Through 90's was actually the most brutal oppression era for the Kurds and it worked. Their leaders got caught at 99 and their asses kicked so hard, they declared that they will halt their operations and establish a unilateral ceasefire. But surprisingly, at 2002 Erdogan got elected and right after Turkey declined US request to transfer her troops from Turkey to Iraq pkk re-established themselves in Iraq. This followed by a peace progress founded by AKP elites. Which eventually Erdogan enjoyed full Kurdish support meantime pkk buried weapons and bombs to cities, recruited the youth and got ready for the end of the ceasefire. When the time came, the towns with major Kurdish population got destroyed. Towns literally became a warzone.

 

[Mandalorian]

According to that map, afrin is not kurdish.

 

[Kara Bey]

The Russian Army is going to Aleppo at the moment. The Turkish Army is succeeding.

-Pentagon says it’s not in crisis with Turkey amid Afrin operation.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/pentagon-says-its-not-in-crisis-with-turkey-amid-afrin-operation-126325

The Pentagon said on Jan. 25 that there was no crisis between Turkey and the U.S. amid Turkey’s “Operation Olive Branch” in Syria’s Afrin.

“We’re not in a crisis, we’re - Turkey is an ally, and we’re going to work with them,” the Pentagon’s chief spokesperson Dana White told reporters.

“But this current - this current issue, is a distraction. And we have to focus as allies and on the mission at hand, and that’s defeating ISIL,” White said

On the question about possible safe zones along the Syrian border, White said Turkey has “legitimate security concerns.”

“We’re going to continue to engage with them,” she added.

Joint Staff Director Lt. Gen. Kenneth McKenzie, who was also with White during the briefing, said: “Clearly we continue to talk to Turks about the possibility of a secure zone, whatever you want to call it. We’ve looked at that for a couple of years in various different iterations, and - and no final decision on it yet.”

McKenzie added that the Turkish operation in Afrin would make it “hard to focus on why we are in Syria, which is the defeat of ISIS,” using another acronym for ISIL.

He echoed White’s comments, saying, “Turkey has a legitimate national security interest and they are very close to the problem.”

“We haven’t trained or provided equipment for any of the Kurds that are in the Afrin pocket. You know we tend to - we’re focused on the Euphrates River Valley, operations to the south and to the east,” he added.

 

[pentagathus]

Hold up, isn't Dana White the president of the UFC?

 

[Kara Bey]

Hold up, isn't Dana White the president of the UFC?

https://www.defense.gov/About/Biographies/Biography-View/Article/1170857/dana-w-white/

 

[pentagathus]

Yeah I can use google, was making a joke. I should have used one of these bad boys though to make it obvious 

 

[Kara Bey]

Yeah I can use google, was making a joke. I should have used one of these bad boys though to make it obvious 

Ahahahah OK.

-Turkey does not kill civilians. Because Turkey is helping 3 million Syrian refugees. This shows the mercy of the Turkish state.
-Also, USA killed 2 million civillians in Iraq.

-US taxpayer dollars funding neo-Marxist group with links to US-listed terror group, Luke Coffey of Heritage Foundation says
https://m.yenisafak.com/en/world/us-think-tank-member-slams-american-support-of-pydpkk-3033275

An average person in the U.S. would be appalled if they were told the truth of the country's foreign policy, according to the Heritage Foundation’s Middle East foreign policy director.

The effects of the PYD/PKK -- the Syrian offshoot of the PKK, which is listed as a terrorist organization by Turkey, the U.S. and EU -- on Turkish-American relations were discussed during a teleconference held by Washington-based think tank Turkish Heritage Organization (THO) on Wednesday.

The event held in the U.S. capital Washington was attended by Luke Coffey, the Heritage Foundation’s Middle East foreign policy director, and Kyle Orton, a member of U.K. based think tank, Henry Jackson Society.

Coffey stated that the U.S. support of PYD/PKK was not acceptable.

"If you told the average person on the street in America that their tax dollars are funding a neo-Marxist group with links to a U.S.-designated terrorist organization, which has killed NATO soldiers and even killed U.S. citizens, they would be appalled by this," he said.

-I will not write until the operation is over.
-GOODBYE!

 

[pentagathus]

The turkish army (and hence the state) does, has and will kill civilians. At the very least accidental civilian casualties are pretty much guaranteed in warfare, but I believe that Turkish soldiers have certainly killed Kurdish civilians due to being unable or unwilling to discriminate between civilians and insurgents at times, and I have no doubt this will happen again to some degree at least. The fact that turkey has helped Syrian refugees does not prevent the civilians it has killed from being dead.
But on the other hand, there is documentation of the human rights abuses by the YPG including the killing of civilians, so even if we were to deny that the PKK and YPG are not simply part of the same entity it is unfair to pretend that turkey is the big bad guy fighting against the lovely friendly kurdish people. Sure the YPG have been fighting IS, but that also does not prevent the civilians they have killed from being dead.

From what I've read I'd say that Turkey could lay a genuine (but very tenuous) claim to making a humanitarian effort in fighting the YPG since they are not instilling democracy and are abusing citizens, although I find it highly unlikely that this new front to the conflict is going to help civilians in the YPG controlled areas. However the claim to be acting in self defence seems very credible considering that the YPG is essentially a branch of the PKK and that you can pretty much guarantee that the YPG territory would at the very least be used to shelter and supply PKK fighters who would wage war in Turkey. And since the Assad regime (or maybe just his father's regime?) used the PKK as a weapon against Turkey, they can't really rely on Assad to control the YPG in the future.

 

[Mad Vader]

-I will not write until the operation is over.
-GOODBYE!

You shouldn't write in the middle of brain surgery anyway.

 

[Calradianın bilgesi]

we don't kill civilians!!!!!
https://twitter.com/TRDiplomacy/status/956895187309137921
reading these propaganda accounts is so frustrating. you keep treading carefully when you criticise government everytime in turkey because you know that you can't take anything for granted, and any claim you make will be questioned to the very end and you prepare all your sources knowing that most of them will not be trusted anyways and you soften all your claims. you try to move from common ground as much as possible to stay persuasive and keep up to the highest standard of evidence.

then you read these accounts and realise how much framework of the public debate limits you. 'YPG jails many people' is enough to claim there's oppression, this standard of evidence would NEVER be acceptable when you criticise turkish government. The words like massacre, oppress, torture are used very liberally. These guys have all the field for themselves.

I get more and more angry when I think about it. Public debate seems to have no point at all. We start from a point where the assumptions and rules are so limiting that it's impossible to win in the first place.

 

[Erozbey]

The turkish army (and hence the state) does, has and will kill civilians.

Yeah sure sure. Also Bin Laden was a man of justice. He never killed a single human. lol

 

[Duh]

Cut the Flame-Baiting, folks. Going forward it will be mutes.

http://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/turkey’s-next-phase-afrin-syria

Battle forecast.

 

[Nattens Madrigal]

Kurdish circle jerk among western media makes me sick.Most of you guys nothing know about regions historical,politic,social,economic situation.We already know Erdogan is a narcissistic,power hungry little child and we already know he is using operition for his own interests but it doesn't change the YPG/Pkk is a savage terrorist organisition makes trouble in the region for very long time.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

I get more and more angry when I think about it. Public debate seems to have no point at all. We start from a point where the assumptions and rules are so limiting that it's impossible to win in the first place.

The underlying reasons for people supporting oppressive regimes are often completely unrelated to factually-derived sources. A lot of trump supporters for example just want a strong populist leader who can make them feel inspired and proud to be wage slaves to the republic. He feeds off deep insecurity which no amount of evidence can properly dissuade. Trump himself is a terrible example of that which he represents and there are tons of interviews where his most loyal supporters will say something to the effect of "yeah, he's a liability to our cause." The ideal of the american god-emperor gives a lot of people raging comfort hardons, and trump is the closest thing to that which America's bland neocon political binary has seen in a very long time.

Not saying it's the exact same with erdogan, but at the same time it's probably fruitless to use the tactics of debate with sources and so on against populism. The only way the erdogan/trump/duterte/modi legend will die is if supporters feel their identity or livelihood isn't under threat.