Sword and Shield with .710?

[Innocence]

Never had any trouble with Training before. After .710 I can still win easily with two-handed weapons, but when I start off with a sword and a shield, if I block with the shield I cannot swing the sword. That is, I release the block and immediately press attack, but nothing happens (the character doesn't swing the sword).

What am I missing here?

I use automatic direction blocking, and mouse guided weapon.

 

[Garth]

Now I have no technical explanation for this, but after 1 million or so frustrations in the training battles with the new defense and combat controls, I learned a little technique for the shield and sword.

Raise your shield, let him hit you three times, then immediately after the third let go of the block button and swing. When you get used to the timing, you hit him usually right before his swing reaches you, and you then proceed to slaughter him and repeat the process if he manages to hit you again before you knock him out.

Why three?

*Shrug*

 

[General_Specific]

The new speed rating affects putting away your shield, too.

 

[Janus]

Raise your shield, let him hit you three times, then immediately after the third let go of the block button and swing.

Huh, just tried that and it doesn't work for me. My way of getting through training was to immediately unequip the shield each time I started with one. Easy enough then.

I just got through jacking up the speed rating of all shields in my game, so this isn't much of an issue for me anymore. There still is a small delay after blocking, but not too bad.

 

[Shades]

I doubled all shield speeds. After doing this, it wasn't too difficult to strike after blocking attacks from novice or regular fighters, but against veterans and champions the shield was a liability. Unfortunately, if shield speeds are raised to much more than double, they will appear completely incorrectly in the game. Looks like shields aren't of much use against more skilled opponents now. However, this situation will probably be improved when Armagan implements the Shield skill bonus to shield speed. For now, we can just switch away the shield when fighting someone who is too fast (as Janus wrote).

 

[Elias_Maluco]

Yeap, it became pretty hard to fight with a shield. I just spent more than an hour to get past the training battles and I lost almost every time I had the bad luck of starting with sword and shield. Before, it was the oposite: I would always win if I get the sword/shield.

I think I like it a bit: before, it was too easy to win an 1vs1 battle when you had a shield and your oponent did not. But I guess it needs some balance, or shield will become quite useless.

 

[Innocence]

Thanks all - so it seems I'm not alone with this problem after all Yes, currently it's next to impossible to win unless you drop the shield, so this needs to be tweaked.

 

[Kelpo]

Thanks all - so it seems I'm not alone with this problem after all Yes, currently it's next to impossible to win unless you drop the shield, so this needs to be tweaked.

Next to impossible is surely an overstatement, but I believe this problem will become less troublesome when the shield skill starts affecting shield speed ratings. Maybe the shield lowering delay could be slightly decreased altogether as well.

 

[Demi-Lich]

The only time i had any problem with a sheild in training was against the staff. It seemed that he could attack quicker than i could put down my sheild and attack, so i just would wait till he was doing an overhead strike, side step it, and then own him.

Now on the other hand, with directional blocking i get owned 50% of the time with any two handed weapon

 

[jrawlings]

I was able to win a few battles with the shield. Granted, I am losing more fights with shield than any others in the training, but I am still winning some.

For me, the overriding theme for success is go offense and stay offensive. This is especially true for shields. I think what makes shield most difficult now is more the mentality... with the shield before, I could play defensive and make calculated strikes. Now, I must take more risks, which does lead to a lot more losses with shield than before. However, it is still winable.

 

[Garth]

Now on the other hand, with directional blocking i get owned 50% of the time with any two handed weapon

Agreed! Directional blocking takes either blind luck or insanely fast reflexes, because if the attack is slow enough for you to tell which direction it's coming from, chances are you're better using that time to get in your own attack.


By the way, if directional blocking is turned on, does it apply to the enemy as well? Or do they still block you all the time automatically?

 

[Arturius]

I have a suggestion to overcome this.
Don't rely on short ranged combat.
I don't mean that you should pull out a bow, but think of it like a normal fight.
Two people wouldn't mindlessly stand in front of eachother swinging back and forth - well maybe they would, but I wouldn't.
My technique, which has worked since I started playing a few versions back is:

Raise your shield when your enemy is within proximity, lengthen yourself simultaneously. He will exhaust his swing always because he has some hopes of hitting your shield for some reason. Time it so that when his sword hits the ground, or its lowest point you are moving toward him. Lower the shield only after his swing is completed. Swing your sword. He is defenseless unless he is quick enough to block, but I assure you most are not. Aim slightly upwards so that you perform an overhead strike - it has the most range and will hit him in the head. From there, move to side slashes, you will easily finish him within the second or third, if not within the first swing with a more powerful weapon.

Also, enemies are very tenacious. In most cases, if you back up they will follow, learn to rely on that.
They will move forward and strike at you, but most likely be out of your distance. Work your timing so that their strikes end when yours begin and you will overcome any enemy.

 

[lancer63]

To me shields are excellent hall decorations, good misile stopers and little else. Even single handed weapons fare better without that hindrance.

 

[Elias_Maluco]

To me shields are excellent hall decorations, good misile stopers and little else. Even single handed weapons fare better without that hindrance.

Agreed. I was never a fan of shields in M&B and now more then ever. For me, a shield is a big waste of weapow slot since I like to carry 2 diferent kinds of meele weapons plus a bow and arrows. The only time I really wish I had a shield is when facing loads of crossbowmen or archers.

 

[Kamamura]

IMO it is good that blocking is not immediate, but the current pause is too long.

It's one of the essential skills in swordplay to be able to quickly attack after defense - no matter if parrying by shield or weapon of any kind. I would not be against a special skill "ripposte, counterattack, etc." that would influence this, but a master must have lightning fast counterattacks.

I would propose the following changes:

- When blocking with shield, the delay from block to attack would depend on how heavy the blow was (i.e. the amount of damage absorbed) as well as on the shield skill
- The overall delay must be shorter. It's ridiculous when you are not able to make a counterattack faster than opponent attacks again after successfully using a shield. Successful defense must give some kind of advantage.

Also note that proficient swordsmen perform preparation for attack (backswing, roughly described) simultaneously with blocking. That way, they are able to attack immediately after they block. It is also possible to attack in the same tempo as opponent with shield - the game does not implement this at all.

 

[Beowulf]

I find that the sword and shield are still quite easy to use.

It takes the right timing for a quicker attack after blocking, just cliking the attack button makes the attack very slow.

When fighting NPC's with shields, its not impossible to kill them now because of their timing.

When against two handed weapons, with the new shield speed, i can time inbetween attacks to get some crippling blows in (and i just dont sit and wait for him to began his attack, its very streamlined)

As long as I dont get overwhelmed by like 10 guys all around me, i usually kill more people before being helplessly overrun than before (I usually win my battles though, unless i run into a warparty with only my two other heroes).

 

[Endoperez]

When attacking, the player can swiftly change the stance by clicking on the "defend" button. I.e., hold Attack, click defend, move mouse to launch attack to another direction. There is still a small pause in-between, at least when compared to AI fighters.

However, with the new defending option, one must release and the re-press defend button. The act of defending and changing defensive stances would be faster if I could just click the attack button and move my mouse. Example:
I hold defend and move mouse down, blocking thrusts.
Enemy changes his thrust into side slash.
I click attack and move mouse horizontally.

I think this would be much faster than the current system. Changing defensive (and attack!) stances WITHOUT clicking attack/defend button would of course be even faster, but it is probably much harder to use properly. And it would need a slider to control the strength of mouse movement required to change the stance, as that is even more personal than the mouse speed that also needs a slider.

 

[Taka]

Generaly I find myself going into battle with bastardsword and a shield. The shield now is really only useful if I find myself swamped and need to retreat back to the safety of the battle line, or if I find myself targeted by missile units (as they tend to volley me now) and need to get up to them. In one on one combat, or any fight where I find myself with the need to attack, I generaly unequip the shield and go at them two handed with the bastard sword, the slowness of the shield raising and lowering makes it much more specialized for what it is useful for, and I still generaly have enough time to drop it and pummel the crap out of a missile unit, just not if I'm under attack from melee units.

 

[yoippari]

I haven't had a problem with the shield. I am having a "are we playing the same game" moment here. I am not using directional blocking though so maybe that is it. The automatic blocking when pressed as you see them pull back is fine then just swing. I have not had a problem with it against anyone.

 

[Janus]

This is a difference between .710 and .711. In .710, there was a delay after you blocked an attack with your shield before you could attack, thus making it hard to get out of defense without getting hit by the opponent. In .711, the delay after blocking with a shield was apparently removed (thankfully), but there is still a small delay before successfully bringing your shield up to block, based on the shield's speed stat.