[Suggestions, kinda] A criticising view on 660's new weapons

[Highelfwarrior]

Okay, I'll be the devils advocate of this new version and share my views on 660's new weapons.

Lets start off with the new awlpike. The general complaint is that it's quite a bit too strong. I'd say a good solution would be to disable shields for it.

Next off, the new Rhodok cleavers. Okay, sure, I can appreciate them as real medieval weapons, but truth be told - hardly anyone else can, or will. Its only people that know a little about medieval weapons that will know they have existed etc. but truth be told 99.9% of Warband players will think they are some kind of Lord of the Rings orc spin-off fantasy weapon.
Generally, they look odd, come across as VERY fantasy. (Rhodoks have now been named "Rhodokhai" as a ref to Uruk hai from Lord of the Rings) Not sure if its a good thing overall, I'd say leave fantasy stuff to mods.

The long clubs have a a similar problem - they look odd. I'm not sure if everyone feels the way I do about these, but I feel they look totally weird. Maybe I'm not used to them yet, but I reckon they're more okay than the other weapons I'm tackling here.

Last but not least, the Great Long Axe. edit: also the Bardiche. Forgot about that one initially. To be honest, I don't really know where to begin to list the problems with this one'. The general complaint was that the Long Axe was ridiculous -- now we have an even longer one. I'm afraid Nord-lovers are all just out to improve their faction and have ever longer axes without thinking of the actual game, but I migth def be wrong. The general problem is that they're overpowered, absolutely insane, and also absolutely unrealistic.

I recently came to own a spiked mace, almost exactly like the one in-game. Its similar size. I decided to do a little test on animations and how M&B should be improved as far as animations go; but what striked me how incredibly heavy this one mace is. It's just a one hander, insignificant in M&B, but damn, that thing is heavier than I ever thought. This made me realise just how ridiculous weapon speeds are in warband at the moment -- but this is okay since it's still an multiplayer game and it needs to remain fun. Nonetheless, there's a line between sacrifices for the sake of gaming, and absurdity. Since I almost lose this insignificant 1 handed club when swinging it at half the speed M&B portrays soldiers to swing, I am 200% sure that anyone swinging a great long axe or long axe (or great swords and bastard swords) the way they do in-game would lose their weapon from momentum right away.
That's just the prob with the realism part of it; there's still the even more important part; balance. People wielding such items generally do nothing else than click the attack button over and over wildly, and they get top score. Unfortunately. Spamming attack in this version is more encouraged than any other, despite the environment collision. Maybe people need to get used to environment collision and learn to use it strategically, though. I tried to hide in buildings and similar when I saw great long axes coming at me, but I still got brutally murdered most of the time even inside places.

And because my words would be useless without some pictures:
http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af334/LakierosJordy/1-48.jpg

^ My first game on this version: the entire round was just 5 or so unarmored players doing nothing but swinging the great long axe and absolutely destroying everything, thus beating top score. Something is wrong with that. The other factions even pick up the nord weapons to have /any/ chance at all.

And another one for fun:
http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af334/LakierosJordy/2-11.jpg




Thanks for reading; please share thoughts as long as they are objective.

Cheers,

 

[Qwertyman]

All very true-

you missed the long great bardiche though -  which has very similar problems to the longaxe,  it just needs its speed toning down-  even with drasticaly reduced speed, both the longaxe and the long great bardiche will be very powerfull weapons,  but at least they will be a bit less rediculous.

 

[Highelfwarrior]

All very true-

you missed the long great bardiche though -  which has very similar problems to the longaxe,  it just needs its speed toning down-  even with drasticaly reduced speed, both the longaxe and the long great bardiche will be very powerfull weapons,  but at least they will be a bit less rediculous.

Very true, totally forgot about that one.

 

[Kleidophoros]

Please remove the circus weapons with the next patch.

 

[Lhorkan]

I really don't see your point, great long axes are still too short. I think the next patch should increase their size to make the nords less underpowered.

 

[Ronan]

I would just like to be able to throw all the axes in the game. Throwing a great long axe would be cool AND the ability would make the nords more unique and balanced.

 

[Urist]

Spoiler

 

[ares007]

You guys...


I agree mostly.

But here is the real problem with the uber long axes/bardiches:

I really don't think these ridiculous axes should do squat to you when you're a meter or less away from your opponent. This has been a problem for a while in Warband with the pikes. The pike tip will be totally behind your character, but it will still somehow stab you (I can draw up another wonderful picture for this as well). (BTW, I love that picture of the great long axe rising into the sky )

I do agree that the speed of these weapons should be toned down a bit as well. They should also just be considered polearms. The animations will look much more natural and believable. (note: if they are polearms, they should have quite weak thrusts)

Another thing to note is that these weapons have problems in tight spots. I've actually been able to get them to a spot where they couldn't hit me and then kill them.

Another thing to note is that if some of the suggestions in the "infighting" thread were properly implemented, these weapons would be much more balanced.


Cleavers:
If they were smaller they might not look too bad.

Another option also is to replace them with falchions and replace the war cleaver with a gross messer.

 

[Lezard]

This thread is full of win, both comical and logical.

I say remove all long axes/bardiches/blubs/maces and introduce a polehammer, as suggested many times before. Change cleavers to falcions (like Highelf said). Disable awl pikes with sheilds (again, as Highelf suggested).

 

[Iberon]

As long as it is the classic rock-on-a-stick polehammer from the older versions of regular M&B.

 

[Night Ninja]

The use of the awlpike with the shield is both overpowered and ahistorical. They're rather hefty, and I doubt that they'd be very manageable with one hand. Otherwise, I think most polearms are quite fine as they are: they offer people a chance to hit hard at longer ranges in return for reduced ability in closer quarters.

The great longaxe, the greataxe, morningstars, and hammers all have monstrously oversized business ends. Balance problems with these weapons only expected since you form expectations of a weapon based on its appearance, and all of these look like clown weapons. Some of the lower-end mauls are quite fine, since they're tools pressed into use as weapons, but there shouldn't be a need for new mechanics just to create a level playing field for weapons that are supposed to suck in most situations.

Swing spam has never been a problem IRL because weapon strikes aren't thrown out willy-nilly using pure muscular power the way they are in Warband. People would recruit their entire body to lend power and speed to a stroke, and that isn't adequately represented at all. In addition, RL swing spammers can be countered with relative ease and much, much less effort than the spammer is using, whereas in Warband you need to be fairly practiced at the game (and possess good ping) to be able to catch strikes and feints and slip in a counterattack before the next attack eats your face. Even then, a fight against a spammer who has some ability to manual block can be a rage-inducing event.

I really don't think these ridiculous axes should do squat to you when you're a meter or less away from your opponent. This has been a problem for a while in Warband with the pikes. The pike tip will be totally behind your character, but it will still somehow stab you (I can draw up another wonderful picture for this as well). (BTW, I love that picture of the great long axe rising into the sky )

This is why nobody likes fighting fast pokey things. The intuitive thing to do (which is to get in close) doesn't work, and they can still outspam you even at close quarters due to the non-existent melee threshold and the goofy hit detection.

 

[Sir Pwn-A-Lot]

Just had a wonderful time with great long berdiche. It's like an imbalance multiplied by two: all that you hated in previous version about war spear and long axe combined in one cheap weapon. This thing need a good nerf, maybe made it cost around 1k and made it a little slower.
I actually approve this weapon for lovers of kickass spamfest.

 

[kingofnoobia]

My main problem: the spiked staff, basically the club with spike but longer, needs to be slower. It's now a 100+ reach weapon with 100+ speed, capability to thrust and blunt damage on the side swings (with a good chance of knockdown and all that). On top of that, it can be worn with a shield. Just a speed setback to 94-96 would be sufficient I think.

 

[CtrlAltDe1337]

I disagree with everything but the longer polearms.  I think they might should be looked at and perhaps changed slightly.  But the cleavers are historical and shouldn't be removed because most people are ignorant of historical gear.

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

Could someone post a picture of a historical giant-ass cleaver? The 2-handed cleaver just seems absurdly huge.

I pretty much don't like the new weapons across the board. I mean, I like getting new weapons, but I really don't like this extreme emphasis on long weapons. I'd rather see things like more clubs, daggers, and some new swords. I do like the new elite scimitar.

 

[Night Ninja]

Here ya go:

Spoiler

The first one came up when I searched for 'maciejowski bible cleaver'. There's a few more images floating around, IIRC.

EDIT: Added a couple more.

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

Those don't look like the 2-handed cleaver. The 2-handed cleaver is like 4 feet long, it's just silly. Same thing with most of the long axes. Most of the stuff I've read suggest the longer axes had a 3 - 4 foot haft, not the nearly man-sized axe we have in game. All of the new two-handed weapons just seem over-sized.

 

[Night Ninja]

The clown weapons have been there for a while. I'm fairly sure they're here to stay, even if they look horribly unrealistic.

The cleaver looks to be pretty hefty in the second picture to me. The version in Warband might look less goofy if it was shrunk a bit, but it gets the broad generalities right.

Haft length is probably up to individual preference, though most hafts would likely fall into the range you described. Wood doesn't tend to survive being buried in mud for several hundred years, so we have to go on non-physical evidence.

 

[Dudro]

I agree with everything but your cleaver arguments.  No reason to see them as fantasy.

 

[Archonsod]

My main problem: the spiked staff, basically the club with spike but longer, needs to be slower. It's now a 100+ reach weapon with 100+ speed, capability to thrust and blunt damage on the side swings (with a good chance of knockdown and all that). On top of that, it can be worn with a shield. Just a speed setback to 94-96 would be sufficient I think.

It's a 1/2 handed weapon, so using it with a shield will reduce your speed and damage by 50%. It's otherwise just a slightly longer spiked club, which I've personally always preferred for Rhodock crossbowmen but it's never been the best weapon they could get.