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Odin Doomhammer said:
Lowlandlord said:
I don't know what the problem with throwing axes is but they should be here, William of Poitiers described the Saxons at Hastings in 1066 as "the valiant resistance of the English and the death-dealing weight of their projectiles, which included spears, javelins, axes, and stones fastened to pieces of wood".

You could be right about the axes, but I feel I ought to point out that's nearly 200 years later than this mod.  It's a bit like saying England had tanks in the second world war and using that as evidence that they must have had tanks in the Napoleonic wars.

That's true, but seventh century graves in southern England also sometimes contain Frankish style throwing axes, so unless there's a break in their use, it seems likely that thrown axes might have continued in some kind of use.

For this mod I'd strongly recommend knocking down the number of thrown spears that people carry to 2 or 3, and make a lighter throwing spear (A "darod" in old English) for skirmishing troops that comes in bags of seven or eight.
 
Odin Doomhammer said:
Lowlandlord said:
I don't know what the problem with throwing axes is but they should be here, William of Poitiers described the Saxons at Hastings in 1066 as "the valiant resistance of the English and the death-dealing weight of their projectiles, which included spears, javelins, axes, and stones fastened to pieces of wood".

You could be right about the axes, but I feel I ought to point out that's nearly 200 years later than this mod.  It's a bit like saying England had tanks in the second world war and using that as evidence that they must have had tanks in the Napoleonic wars.

Its more like saying that because they have bayonets now and they had them in the Great War they must of had them in WWII. The Throwing axe was not new at Hastings, it was very old and on the way out, in another thread someone voiced the opinion that it was unseen in Europe after the 8th century. I think it saw its height around the Age of Migration. And there is very little difference from the combat stategies of the Saxons in 867 and in 1066, last major change I can think of was conversion to Christianity and the adoption of the hide and hundred way of figuring taxes and soldiers, back in the early early 7th.
 
On to useful suggestions. The weapons and armour could use some variation, maul (they were probably around, just not common or used by nobility or weaker people or well enough made to put in a grave), slings (which were rather effective and be the first step in any ranged or throwing) some imported stuff like Hunnish style bows (which have been found, usually from earlier I believe) and Saracen swords (the Celtic kingdoms were known to keep trade open as far away as Egypt which apparently greatly influenced their monk traditions). Of course not terribly common, or cheap. Maybe like a Muslim guy in a Tavern like the book merchant. I don't know if you want to add boats or not, I think they would be really cool, sailing out of Dunholm or some place with a stupid Welsh name, hitting Wessex and cruising back to sell the loots. Maybe consider sea Caravans and making use of Man, Wight and Anglesey. Everything except the maul sounds like alot of work though and add in Dal Riada and Strathclyde first.
 
Quick suggestion:

[Deleted in light of Lowland's comments.]

Oh, and increase number of prisoners allowed per skill point.
 
Cattle raids were bigger amongst the Irish who fought amonst each other as a pastime rather than actual wars, the Britons did infact have patrols and organization. And slaves were on the out, Christianity wasn't a fan and only the Danes and remote communities were pagan. Serfs replaced them but serfs were connected to the lands so I doubt there was much of a serf trade, and drakkar don't make for great slave ships, better for shiny loot.
 
small sugestion, should be a no-brainer (for you)

After taking an oath, we should get a banner along with the Oath sword, so we can have a hero banner carrier.
 
That ones actually debatable, Lords didn't wave their own banner, they had Banner Men which are already there do that for them, course I'm Scott clan so I picked the Hart one (our badge is a deer) so I need East Anglian Banners for my Briton and Dane characters. That changed, but much later with knights and their pinnons and being organized into bannerets. Still, it might be nice to be able to give one to one of the housecarl (the heros).
 
Small suggestion, on some of the confrontation or city choice screens the black text of some of the choices runs over the picture at the lower right of the screen making it very hard to read against a dark background. Maybe you could move the pics or make the text more skinny to stop this from happening.
 
Another minor suggestion. Make either the tavern smaller or the lord's hall larger instead of having them the same.
 
Actually Shield Maidens were never terribly common, about as common as magic dwarf made swords passed on to a daughter by her dead (and still talking) father, which I seem to recall is one of the good shield maiden sagas. In Christian England they would have been down right sinful and pagan, we don't notice to much today but originally Christianity was a very sexist organization (Adam's first wife, Lilith, was banished because she wanted to be considered equal, as she was, she was made from the same clay as he, Eve was then made of one of Adam's ribs to make sure she was subserviant). That would limit them to being only Danish as the only non-Christian group, and then, like I said, not very common most stories about Shield maidens involve their families dying and them avenging them. Furthermore, if they were in the game they should be more than just an upgradable unit with no name, they should be a hero with a name thats almost equal to the character. Which reminds me, Sister Hyldigarth (or whatever her name is), I always set her up with armour and a sword and shield, she is a Shield Maiden, so already there.
 
While there's little historical evidence for "Shield Maidens" it is interesting to note that in the 8th century "Law of Innocents", proposed by Adamnan, the abbot of Iona, to the Kings of Pictland, several Irish kings, the Dal Riadans and Northumbrians, one of the things he wants to outlaw is women joining or leading "fians" or warbands.

In addition, many Saxon graves previously thought to be male because of the presence of weapons in the burial have been shown to be the graves of women.

Of course, in the period of this game it is unlikely many women joined warbands, but Aethelflaed, Alfred the Great's daughter, was a formidable military leader. It is, admittedly, doubtful if she ever personally engaged in combat.
 
The Christians spent alot of time trying to break the Fianna, as it was a pagan warband that often went around with "demonic markings", tattoos. They were not horribly uncommon in Japan, naginata's are most well known as a women's weapon (not in like a bad way just women tended to use them). As I recall, Christian Saxons didn't bury weapons so I doubt that those women were Chistian, I also seem to recall women sometimes being buried with their husbands. Cultures matter more than country, I don't see what China has to do with England, the Soviets also had alot of women soldiers, and the Britons of the Roman age had a few. And it wouldn't be logical for them to use a bow, for several reasons, one the breast, ancient women archers in some cultures (namely the ones that came to inspire the Greek Amazonians) had to cut off a breast to shoot properly, otherwise the string hits your breast, you miss and get hurt. Bows also weren't so common in Britain at the time. And camp follower is a euphimism for whore, or other service industry related to the military, like cook or seamstress so they aren't really the fighting type. And Aethelflaed just adds to what I said earlier, Shieldmaidens, especially for the later era, are every one of them, individuals who picked their path and should be heroes, you don't wash dishes one day and swing a sword the next.
 
when i go to download it says run or save i press run it loads i press run again and it installs. Then I go to mountblade and it says native i press the arrow but native is the only one i have, why? I do have 9.03.
 
Griffith said:
when i go to download it says run or save i press run it loads i press run again and it installs. Then I go to mountblade and it says native i press the arrow but native is the only one i have, why? I do have 9.03.
Make sure the installation path is correct.
It installs to something like 'program files/mount&blade'.

If it's called something else on your computer, like 'programs/mount&blade' perhaps,
then you should change it to that.

Also, if it installed successfully it should be somewhere on the computer. Try doing a search to find it.

That's all I can think of. Hope you figure it out.
 
Lowlandlord said:
And it wouldn't be logical for them to use a bow, for several reasons, one the breast, ancient women archers in some cultures (namely the ones that came to inspire the Greek Amazonians) had to cut off a breast to shoot properly, otherwise the string hits your breast, you miss and get hurt.

I agree with most of the rest of what you said (excepting the bit about the Fianna - Fian just means warband, it doesn't necessarily refer to the mythical warriors of that name), but this is just bollocks invented by really stupid Greeks. How do you think women compete in Olympic archery and the like without hacking their breasts off? There's no evidence whatsoever that the myth of the Amazon breast choppers is anything other than a typical bit of ridiculous ancient Greek chauvinism.
 
Actually there is some proof, circumstantional though. Scythians and Sarmatians had plenty of warrior women and archery was the popular warrior skill for these societies, quite a few women warrior graves have been found related to these groups, usually with bows. Mutillation may sound horrible for us modern people but in most tribal and warrior groups it was and is very common, Celtic tattoos, African tribes with their lip disks and things, American natives with their Sundance (they erect a Axis Mundi, a wooden pole, tie a rope to it and attach the rope to their chests or backs, often with it being ripped out), theres a South American tribe (?, getting rusty on this) that scar their backs and then pack it with ashs so it marks in an attempt to look scaly like a croc. And lets not forget eunuchs, not a dissimilar practice that was known to happen in certain religious societies in the area, especially with the Cybele and her attendant Attis who castrated himself in madness (Cybele makes normal girlfriends look like sane individuals), which the 1911 Encylopedia Brittanica states has some relation to the Scythian, they certainly would of been close to its area of origin, Phrygia (Turkey, Scythia is roughly northern Romania and the Ukraine, so just across the sea). So theres no "I am a Scythian women warrior and I cut my breast off signed Amazonian Queen" proof but there is some evidence. Last I checked with my archery buddy and his archery club, women tend to wear a special bra thing that keeps their breast out of way, just like everyone tends to wear bracers so they don't hit their arms with the bowstring.

And Fianna is plural for Fian.

As for the culture things, lots of cultures use women in war, mostly ones that allowed for equal or semi-equal status, Celts and Vikings for instance, still not overly common because noone liked to go to war and leave the home completely empty, someone has to at least look at the crops and feed the kids even with modern equality this is mostly "womenswork", plenty of women quit their jobs when they get kids. Romans and Greeks didn't do alot for women equality (infact they squashed it in many parts of their empire, like England, Livia and some others got alot of behind the throne power though), Christianity was absolutley against women equality, Eves fault for original sin, Delilah betrayed Samson, the whole Lillith thing, etc. eventually they teamed up and it was sinful to be seen in public with your hair down until like a century ago. Japs went downhill for equality as their society became more and more repressed and formalized, a samurai's wife still had certain expected duties and rituals though, defending the home in his absence, their own special suicide thing.

And, no, warrior is not really a euphimism for pimp, its english for a guy who goes to war, and doesn't get to see his wife for a long long time, commonly years, its whores, solo service or Golden Band of Thebes style.

Theres already one in the heros list, Sister Hyldigard, that should be enough shield maidens, most stories really only feature one.
 
I'd have to say this is truly a superb mod. The only thing I have against it is the upkeep for troops, but it isn't an issue as long as you keep your troops in a lower tier and raid every so often.

Excellent mod dude.  If you end up patching this to a later version, I can only imagine how much more epic this mod will become.  No pressure though.

Once again, good job.
 
Lowlandlord said:
The Christians spent alot of time trying to break the Fianna, as it was a pagan warband that often went around with "demonic markings", tattoos. They were not horribly uncommon in Japan, naginata's are most well known as a women's weapon (not in like a bad way just women tended to use them). As I recall, Christian Saxons didn't bury weapons so I doubt that those women were Chistian, I also seem to recall women sometimes being buried with their husbands. Cultures matter more than country, I don't see what China has to do with England, the Soviets also had alot of women soldiers, and the Britons of the Roman age had a few. And it wouldn't be logical for them to use a bow, for several reasons, one the breast, ancient women archers in some cultures (namely the ones that came to inspire the Greek Amazonians) had to cut off a breast to shoot properly, otherwise the string hits your breast, you miss and get hurt. Bows also weren't so common in Britain at the time. And camp follower is a euphimism for whore, or other service industry related to the military, like cook or seamstress so they aren't really the fighting type. And Aethelflaed just adds to what I said earlier, Shieldmaidens, especially for the later era, are every one of them, individuals who picked their path and should be heroes, you don't wash dishes one day and swing a sword the next.

Of the Fianna;

One, the mythic Fianna are barely known to have existed in the capacity myth gives them, and are probably heavily hagiogriaphied. They were also not being 'broken' by Christians in any provable extent, since by the time there was a substantial Christian majority in Ireland, there weren't Fianna like those described in the Fenian cycle, if they ever existed as that had described them, and we have little proof of the Irish tattooing at such a time, except for some in Ulster, who were most likely Ulster Picts (Cruithne tribes who dwelled there), and the scattered, occassional tattooed individual mentioned (which included several priests, such as one of the abbots of an ecclesiacal community near Armagh). Tattoos weren't as much of a concern to the Irish church as they were to the British, who interpreted them negatively probably due to constant conflict with Picts (while the Christianization of Ireland probably started from Britain, it quickly grew to be largely handled by native Irish converts trained as clergy). What we do know about the Fianna as described in the Fennian Cycle, if it is indeed supposed to be at least vaguely accurate, is that they were largely destroyed in the 3rd century by Cairbre Lifechair. By the time Christianity came to Ireland, if they had been a regular army, they simply didn't exist in that capacity anymore. References to them existing as such a the time invariably come from centuries later and are mixed with hagiographies of saints (like St. Patrick meeting Oisin, an utter impossibility, since Oisin would have been over two-hundred), which wasn't uncommon in any part of Europe, in attempts to tie the native culture to the missionaries who had converted the region, but it's no proof that the Fianna of myth still existed.

Two, there were bands called Fianna in Christian Ireland, who were themselves Christians. The only verifiable historical Fianna are described in early medieval Irish law, and were mercenary bands composed mainly of landless young aristocrats (each called a fénnid, their leader called a rígfénnid). Each Fian was independent and would travel around Ireland seeking employment in various wars. This differs heavily from the Fianna described in the Fiannaidheacht/Fiannaíocht (the Fenian Cycle), which gives them as a single, standing army in the service of the high king of Ireland, divded between two rival clans who competed over rulership of the group. Fianna as mercenaries in this period would still exist, and there'd be no conflict in Christians hiring them or working with them, since they were mostly Christians anyway (though Ireland almost certainly still had some native pagans, either as individuals in communities, or as small isolated communities; the Normans report a few centuries later, though it's certainly propaganda, and inflated if not purely invented, that some isolated villages in Ireland didn't even know the name of Christ).

Also, you seem to think the period was a bit more stacked against women than it was,or that the period was monolithic in general theologically. It was not sinful to be seen with hair down perse. It was, especially prior to the 1100s, more or less regional. It highly depended on the culture in an area to determine what was acceptable and what was not. More than anything, the local churches seemed to take a stance of not 'rocking the boat' as it were, to avoid social disharmony. So, what was acceptable culturally, outside of those things blatantly against doctrine, was typically allowed fine. Women in Christian Ireland and among Christians in Pictavia were allowed to fight in wars, and some still did, though Adomnain's Law was set up to try and restrain that. He was apparently told (like how all good laws are made! ...if you're a ponce) by his mother to set this up, which was intended to forbid women from going to war because it made orphans of too many children. This never worked a hundred percent, and numerous, though highly reduced and certainly more of an oddity, fought in Ireland and Scotland right up into the modern period. It had little to do with religion so much as Adomnain being disturbed by dead parents leaving their children behind. On tattoos again for a moment, mind that for a long period, Christians in Ethiopia and Nubia tattooed their forehead with a cross. That wasn't determined evil or sinful. Though, in some societies, it was seen as distasteful, and harsher ones, even as a sin, because it was not a social norm. The church at the time varied far too much culturally between even small areas to make any broad sweeping statements about what they thought about anything, since it was largely in the hands of local bishops (or abbots among Gaels and many Britons), and then, even into the hands of local priests and monks, and outside of the basic doctrine, things began to vary broadly very fast. It'd actually be something interesting if Ireland were on the map, considering the odd relationship of the Saxon and Gaelic churches. Those Saxons that had been largely educated by Gaels sided with the Irish doctrinally (Northumbria) for quite a time, the Saxons in the south tended to sort of side with Rome, as they'd put it, yet they also did a lot of things their own way, and often their bishops used their clout just to antagonize the Irish bishops at various synods (since papal messages to Ireland went through Britain to get there, they had some manner of power to, not really force the Irish to do anything, but, kind of like prodding them in the face with a stick for little reason other than being a toffee-nosed git).
 
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