Suggestions and Feedback

[Leggeron]

Markus,

Just about the only thing I can think of that could make your mod even better is more variety in shields.

The now-dead Viking Raiders: The Dark Ages mod, by FerdiadITA, has (had) some excellent shields. I wonder if you can't ask him if you could incorporate them into your mod. I'm sure he wont mind, since he isnt working on that mod any more.

Thanks,

And thanks for this tremendous mod!

Actually, as of latest, he stated he will work on it again when M&B V.1 comes out.  Still, I dont think he would mind. 

 

[Cpt.Cabbage]

If there's one thing I love most about video games is the immersion factor. Nothing's better than feeling like YOU just speared the guy in the head other than your character.

And I think that this mod REALLY accomplished that. The dialog was witty and made me laugh. The character creation was intelligent and gave you ups and downs to your decisions before you even started playing. The first time i stepped into the neutral city (forgot the name) I was surprised to feel like i was actually IN a city, there were lots of NPCs whether they were merchants, Norse quest-givers or just peasants. Really made the towns feel more alive.

The only down side i think would be that I'd love to see more variety in weapons and armor. Not sure if this has already been discussed or if it's being worked on, but after about 40 minutes of gameplay i felt like I had seen all the weapons possible.

All in all. Certainly one of my favorite mods. I'll be playing through quite a few campaigns on this one before I put it down.

Nice work.

 

[Odin Doomhammer]

The first time i stepped into the neutral city (forgot the name) I was surprised to feel like i was actually IN a city, there were lots of NPCs whether they were merchants, Norse quest-givers or just peasants. Really made the towns feel more alive.

It's a little-known city called London, you probably haven't heard of it. 

Spelt Lundene in this mod though, I believe, an old verion of the name.

 

[Valorian]

Downloaded the new full version and the inventory bug is gone, once more I have to say this mod is really good, and the immersion it gives is fantastic, during a battle against some Danish Vikingrs my character had almost a duel with axes against a veteran Viking, he was holding slow two-handed and while I hold faster one handed axe, I was quite wounded and got no shield (I carry bow, arrows and a spear), It was very cool fight with dodges, blocks and faints.

There is no way to force or start wars? in my game Mercia (the kingdow that I planned to join) is in peace with everyone, so I guess that I must join East Anglia (they are at war against britons and danish).

Something that I don't understand (I don't know if this is a bug) is that sometimes  I found grey colored peasant partys that are travelling toward me, but when the reach me they disappear. 

 

[Adorno]

Something that I don't understand (I don't know if this is a bug) is that sometimes I found grey colored peasant parties that are travelling toward me, but when the reach me they disappear. 

That would be a well known bug in many mods (and in native once) - not that the peasants are grey, but traveling to you and then disappearing.

 

[Maan]

Are you considering improving the loot?
As it is now, there's really no point fighting other parties. Even if battered, rusty and cracked, I think you should find something other than 3 shields for a 30 strong Vinkingr party...
At the moment, it's a bit frustrating, it take ages to give you companions something better than a shirt...

 

[Dain Ironfoot]

It's a sign of how brilliant the weapon balancing in this mod is that I'm still fighting using my starting spear and a slightly better saex.. and that I'm fighting with the 2 worst M&B weapon classes.. spears and daggers.

There's something so satisfying about spearing half a dozen men and cutting the throats of the remainder. The battles in this mod are some of the most fun and exciting I've ever had in M&B.. it's got a great flow, there's a really good range of party scales, so you've always got someone to fight.. and troops are really easy to get so there's no scrabbling around villages trying to gather troops.

 

[El Perro Finlandese]

Where's the 0.95X version?

 

[Adorno]

Where's the 0.95X version?

There is none, and there won't be.

 

[Jason of Suburbia]

how bout 1.0?

 

[Adorno]

how bout 1.0?

I can't speak for Markus (and Mr. force majeure) but he's written he will port the mod when 1.0 is out.

 

[Odin Doomhammer]

I have a few suggestions on the rivers.  The ones you've chosen to do probably go on a bit too long, making the map look a bit odd.  You have each of them going back their full length to their source, but of course for most of this they are just normal sized rivers of the sort you can find pretty much all over the country.

The Thames for example should probably start just a short distance to the west of London, as further upstream it is easily crossable.  Certainly when it's passing through Oxfordshire it is a fairly small river, not worth including on the map.  Same with the river in the SW (the Exe isn't it?) should be only about half as long as it is, there's no point representing a small stream as an uncrossable river.

Good work generally on the new map though, it makes for a much more entertaining game.

 

[The Blind Skald]

great mod.

Small suggestion, change the name Danish youth because they sometimes appear as old farts .
I suggest Danish Settler.

Oh, and Purty please bring the throwing axes back. Decrease the ammo number (axes are heavy!) and increase damage a bit, just a bit.

 

[Jariik]

Before I begin my suggestions, allow me to say that this is a fantastic mod, and as near a video-game approximation to what i believe the Viking Age is that i've ever seen.  Your armoring scale of troops is fantastic, with even sometimes veteran troops having little to no armor at all, and equipment is very well done and remarkably well balanced.

One of the areas I believe can be improved is armor variety.  Your coloration is spot-on, with colors at just the right shades as to look dyed (except for one blue tunic that's a little too vibrant).  I believe you can expand into different types of armor than just gambesons and chainmail.  You could add linen and wool padded armors, and even just heavy wool tunics as a sort of light armor.  Viking lamellar is not an uncommon thing, espeically leather lamellar made of boiled leather lames.  As well, scale armor (scales riveted to a leather backing) is known to have existed in the Viking world.  Splinted bracers and greaves, of steel and iron, were also common amongst elite soldiers.

I also suggest, for a historical sake, that you made leather-rimmed shields as opposed to steel-rimmed shields.  Steel-rimmed shield remnants have been found only in a rare few grave finds, while many more shield remnants without steel rims have been found both in gravesites and in field finds.  It is also not uncommon to have a shield with no lining at all, while at the same time some of the elite shields are covered completely in leather.  As for shield coloration, your patterns are quite spot-on.  Although there's no way to be certain, the impression is that intricate designs on shields were rare, and limited to elite soldiers, since the shield is understandably not going to last long in battle.  I do suggest you use less black and replace it with grey perhaps, since black paint was hard to come by in those times.

Besides these more aesthetic concerns, there is an element of gameplay that feels off.  While your relative weapon speeds are particularly good, with swords, hatchets and seaxes being faster than hand axes, etc, the overall speed feels too slow to me.  I have some re-enactment experience with many of these weapons, and the overall pace of combat for my own character feels just a bit too slow, especially when wielding two-handed axes.  I suggest a slight, universal weapon speed increase, and give 2h axes a large speed increase, though still just slightly slower than most any other weapon on the field.

I realize all of these suggestions are quite large in scope and work for you, but i do have a quick-and-easy one, as well.  In my mind, the boar spear should get a bonus against shields, though perhaps not as great of a bonus as axes.  The wings of a boar spear are very useful for sliding around the edge of an opponent's shield and, with a good hard yank, swinging it open.

Please believe me when i say that i think there is absolutely nothing wrong with the mod as is.  It is a fantastic piece of work that comes as close as digitally possible to representing a true shieldwall, which is the core of Viking Age combat.  My opinions are precisely that, opinions on how I think the game could work better, so I won't be offended if i'm ignored completely.  If you'd like to talk about anything i've suggested more in depth, feel free to PM me.

~Jariik

 

[Markus II]

Are you considering improving the loot?
As it is now, there's really no point fighting other parties. Even if battered, rusty and cracked, I think you should find something other than 3 shields for a 30 strong Vinkingr party...
At the moment, it's a bit frustrating, it take ages to give you companions something better than a shirt...

Aye, it's something I'll change for the next patch. (Version 1.2)

I just have to figure out how to do it...

I have a few suggestions on the rivers.  The ones you've chosen to do probably go on a bit too long, making the map look a bit odd.  You have each of them going back their full length to their source, but of course for most of this they are just normal sized rivers of the sort you can find pretty much all over the country.

The Thames for example should probably start just a short distance to the west of London, as further upstream it is easily crossable.  Certainly when it's passing through Oxfordshire it is a fairly small river, not worth including on the map.  Same with the river in the SW (the Exe isn't it?) should be only about half as long as it is, there's no point representing a small stream as an uncrossable river.

Good work generally on the new map though, it makes for a much more entertaining game.

A process of simplification I'm afraid.

I'll likely do a new map for the M&B V1 port. Rivers may get changed then...

great mod.

Small suggestion, change the name Danish youth because they sometimes appear as old farts .
I suggest Danish Settler.

Oh, and Purty please bring the throwing axes back. Decrease the ammo number (axes are heavy!) and increase damage a bit, just a bit.

Hmm... I like Danish Setters. Good suggestion.

Throwing axes are a sticking point.

Before I begin my suggestions, allow me to say that this is a fantastic mod, and as near a video-game approximation to what i believe the Viking Age is that i've ever seen.  Your armoring scale of troops is fantastic, with even sometimes veteran troops having little to no armor at all, and equipment is very well done and remarkably well balanced.

One of the areas I believe can be improved is armor variety.  Your coloration is spot-on, with colors at just the right shades as to look dyed (except for one blue tunic that's a little too vibrant).  I believe you can expand into different types of armor than just gambesons and chainmail.  You could add linen and wool padded armors, and even just heavy wool tunics as a sort of light armor.  Viking lamellar is not an uncommon thing, espeically leather lamellar made of boiled leather lames.  As well, scale armor (scales riveted to a leather backing) is known to have existed in the Viking world.  Splinted bracers and greaves, of steel and iron, were also common amongst elite soldiers.

I also suggest, for a historical sake, that you made leather-rimmed shields as opposed to steel-rimmed shields.  Steel-rimmed shield remnants have been found only in a rare few grave finds, while many more shield remnants without steel rims have been found both in gravesites and in field finds.  It is also not uncommon to have a shield with no lining at all, while at the same time some of the elite shields are covered completely in leather.  As for shield coloration, your patterns are quite spot-on.  Although there's no way to be certain, the impression is that intricate designs on shields were rare, and limited to elite soldiers, since the shield is understandably not going to last long in battle.  I do suggest you use less black and replace it with grey perhaps, since black paint was hard to come by in those times.

Besides these more aesthetic concerns, there is an element of gameplay that feels off.  While your relative weapon speeds are particularly good, with swords, hatchets and seaxes being faster than hand axes, etc, the overall speed feels too slow to me.  I have some re-enactment experience with many of these weapons, and the overall pace of combat for my own character feels just a bit too slow, especially when wielding two-handed axes.  I suggest a slight, universal weapon speed increase, and give 2h axes a large speed increase, though still just slightly slower than most any other weapon on the field.

I realize all of these suggestions are quite large in scope and work for you, but i do have a quick-and-easy one, as well.  In my mind, the boar spear should get a bonus against shields, though perhaps not as great of a bonus as axes.  The wings of a boar spear are very useful for sliding around the edge of an opponent's shield and, with a good hard yank, swinging it open.

Please believe me when i say that i think there is absolutely nothing wrong with the mod as is.  It is a fantastic piece of work that comes as close as digitally possible to representing a true shieldwall, which is the core of Viking Age combat.  My opinions are precisely that, opinions on how I think the game could work better, so I won't be offended if i'm ignored completely.  If you'd like to talk about anything i've suggested more in depth, feel free to PM me.

~Jariik

My thanks for the indepth feedback Jariik.

To address some of the issues you've raised...

New armour items are planned for the port to M&B Version 1. I'll open a thread in the sub-forum to brainstorm ideas, collect artwork for inspiration etc...

I had planned to make leather-rimmed shields for the mod, but I ran out of time. Once again, it's something for the ported release.

Dealing with weapon speeds is a rather nasty can of worms to open. In order to shift weapon speeds upwards, I'd need to look at shield speeds as well, in addition to the atheltics skill and agility attributes of troops. (Faster moving troops will be far more dangerous if their weapons can be wielded faster)

 

[Rosacrux]

Excellent Mod! Tried it just a couple of days ago and stuck to it. I particularly love the rough language  A couple minor points:

- better loot would be nice.
- Sorted loot (there's this mod out there fixing that...) would be also nice.
- more variety in equipment

Keep on the great work!

 

[Odin Doomhammer]

I have a few suggestions on the rivers.  The ones you've chosen to do probably go on a bit too long, making the map look a bit odd.  You have each of them going back their full length to their source, but of course for most of this they are just normal sized rivers of the sort you can find pretty much all over the country.

The Thames for example should probably start just a short distance to the west of London, as further upstream it is easily crossable.  Certainly when it's passing through Oxfordshire it is a fairly small river, not worth including on the map.  Same with the river in the SW (the Exe isn't it?) should be only about half as long as it is, there's no point representing a small stream as an uncrossable river.

Good work generally on the new map though, it makes for a much more entertaining game.

A process of simplification I'm afraid.

I'll likely do a new map for the M&B V1 port. Rivers may get changed then...

Yeah, it's not something that needs doing urgently, but if you're doing a new map at any stage I'd definitely suggest that you only include rivers where they're uncrossable (might need a little bit of guesswork).  Should make the map more recognisable.

And if I'm being really picky (which I usually am!), I'd say the map size should be somewhere between the current size (a bit too small) and the old size (too big).

I know I'm being very picky, but I think it will only take a few changes like this to tip the mod over from merely great to being pretty much perfect.

 

[Spongly]

Bear in mind for armour that no lamellar or scale armour from the dark ages has ever been found in Britain, it is never referenced in any written sources from or about Britain, and it is never shown on any manuscript (all this is to my knowledge of course). Eastern Vikings may have used lamellar armour, they may have used leather body armour of some construction, but it's pretty difficult to generalise beyond that. The splint bracers and greaves are, as far as I'm aware, only evidenced in the Vendel graves from early 7th century Sweden, and it's only one of many interpretations of a set of iron strips found in the grave.

All these things could arguably be included in the game as rare items, but are not in evidence in Viking Age Britain. A better bet would just be to expand the variety of existing equipment, with varying lengths of mail byrnies, dagged edged mail (represented in lots of Saxon manuscripts), decorated mail, embroidered tunics for nobles etc.

Leather rimmed shields are a good idea though - most shields would probably have been leather covered and rimmed.

 

[Lowlandlord]

I don't know what the problem with throwing axes is but they should be here, William of Poitiers described the Saxons at Hastings in 1066 as "the valiant resistance of the English and the death-dealing weight of their projectiles, which included spears, javelins, axes, and stones fastened to pieces of wood". The thing to note there is that its not just throwing axes, whereas the earlier Franks used volleys of all throwing axes (comparable to Roman Pilums). 2-3 per bag max with plenty of damage and good for wrecking shields with a requirement of power throwing 2-4 (throwing an axe is alot tougher than throwing a spear-thing) should balance them somewhat. And the NPCs should have a random mix so theres not alot of throwing axes. I'm starting to look into it but I'm also curious about how big the larger swords were at the time, it was my understanding that Celtic Britain had some longer swords than exist in game right now, and the later Scot-Celts certainly loved their claidheamh mor (that is claymore for those not up on Gaelic, the retarded languge, great sword in english).

 

[Odin Doomhammer]

I don't know what the problem with throwing axes is but they should be here, William of Poitiers described the Saxons at Hastings in 1066 as "the valiant resistance of the English and the death-dealing weight of their projectiles, which included spears, javelins, axes, and stones fastened to pieces of wood".

You could be right about the axes, but I feel I ought to point out that's nearly 200 years later than this mod.  It's a bit like saying England had tanks in the second world war and using that as evidence that they must have had tanks in the Napoleonic wars.