Suggestions about game balance (or DMing on Warband)
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I think magic users too strong, because of infinity mana stream.
Taking a lot of shields, health with vampire bolt, and making great damage with cheapest magic missiles.
May be is meaningful to slow speed of flow of mana and pray points 2-4 times?
It's for making the need to more thoughtful approach of spending resources.
And increase weapon prof stats to native troops, at least infantry. Now phantasy factions, especially orcs and dark elves sometimes attacked 2 times faster than native tiers analogs.
Taking a lot of shields, health with vampire bolt, and making great damage with cheapest magic missiles.
May be is meaningful to slow speed of flow of mana and pray points 2-4 times?
It's for making the need to more thoughtful approach of spending resources.
And increase weapon prof stats to native troops, at least infantry. Now phantasy factions, especially orcs and dark elves sometimes attacked 2 times faster than native tiers analogs.
KingBruceLee
Sergeant
You're right - most of unmounted native troops are useless now - clerics and mages own every battlefield.
CHIMouttathisplane
Sergeant
KingBruceLee said:
Solve it "Floris" style. Don't buff the Rhodok Sergeant and the Vaegir Marksman and the other high tier units. Instead, create an extra tier of units, so they can keep up with all the demons, the wizards, clerics, whatnot.
KingBruceLee
Sergeant
CHIMouttathisplane said:
+1
This may be more applicable to future versions (especially once you get dungeons etc in, as you've hinted at) but I feel like starting out is too easy. With the right combinations of starting character stat boosts, you can start out with the majority of cleric/paladin powers for example. The suggestion is basically to restructure the character creation process, possibly simplifying to just race and then class. Starting characters should be pretty weakly powered so that there is more room character growth and progression. Maybe cap it at 2-3 points in magic offense/ faith to begin with, with some races getting an extra point or not. Perhaps some restrictions as to which races can even become certain classes or not (if that's already in the mod, apologies, I haven't tried every combination yet).
Eventually some class/race/faction specific starter quests would be awesome as well.
Magic skills have decent progression actually, since the spells are so expensive you can only afford one every now and then until you are more powerful. As a tangent, it would be nice if you could incorporate finding some less common spells (customized by named wizards for example) through some quests, such as finding a lost spellbook or something.
By the way, great work on the mod, long time M&B player and this mod is one of the reasons I still play instead of just waiting for Bannerlord
[EDIT]: Also, I feel like magic boosting items are probably a little bit too rare/expensive, you could probably reduce the price of some of the items and spells, especially if you added more options in the next versions.
Eventually some class/race/faction specific starter quests would be awesome as well.
Magic skills have decent progression actually, since the spells are so expensive you can only afford one every now and then until you are more powerful. As a tangent, it would be nice if you could incorporate finding some less common spells (customized by named wizards for example) through some quests, such as finding a lost spellbook or something.
By the way, great work on the mod, long time M&B player and this mod is one of the reasons I still play instead of just waiting for Bannerlord
[EDIT]: Also, I feel like magic boosting items are probably a little bit too rare/expensive, you could probably reduce the price of some of the items and spells, especially if you added more options in the next versions.
Yes please!Gerec said:
Erudaki
Recruit
Well I might be the only one who thinks this, but in the field Player mages are not as powerful as some other class combos. Maybe equally so, bot not as powerful. (Example - My archer class can shoot down 25-40 of the enemies soldiers before they reach his troop lines, Wields a magic bow and singing arrows. My knight was a one man army (but he had a touch of magic) and would take out lords armies by hisself with the help of good armor, a nightmare, and white bolt. My pure mage however, with 8 spellcasting and archmage robes, hood, and necrostaff, can toss 4 fireballs to start out. taking out maybe 20 troops tops... then having to wait 80 seconds to cast another one. and being completly useless against any footsoldiers with shields at that point.) During sieges however - I feel like they are unstoppable, as they can sit under the walls and fireball the side of it to kill the defenders. As for NPC troops, i believe that the mages and clerics are well balanced with their strength and price. It would be unpractical to have an army of 100 elite clerics (for elves that would be 9000 deniers a week w/o leadership which is quite costly especialy if you add in some archers or ranged troops.)
On a similar note. I believe the AI lords are getting stomped so hard mostly because their poor ability to train troops. Sure they run around with 150 troops but if you look at their army composure, more then half their troops are T3 and under. While what i am about to propose may be a bad idea, but it will make the AI lords a tad more comparable in strength to the player, is giving them a couple points in training. This should make it so they wont run around with a bunch of basic troops (Tested with companion lords with 3 training skill -- Recruit level troops(t1) i gave them were roughly t3-t4 in a week or two.
On a similar note. I believe the AI lords are getting stomped so hard mostly because their poor ability to train troops. Sure they run around with 150 troops but if you look at their army composure, more then half their troops are T3 and under. While what i am about to propose may be a bad idea, but it will make the AI lords a tad more comparable in strength to the player, is giving them a couple points in training. This should make it so they wont run around with a bunch of basic troops (Tested with companion lords with 3 training skill -- Recruit level troops(t1) i gave them were roughly t3-t4 in a week or two.
SmurfInHell
Squire
Erudaki said:
I'd suggest mixing up your spells. Do say 2 fireballs, a lightning bolt, and then magic missile for awhile. At least it'll help you pace the magic consumption until stuff is done about it.
As for the second part I can absolutely understand that.
On a similar note as the extra training points for lords. I've amped both the leadership and troops-per-point of leadership for AI lords. And it's ever so much more fun. After a while it feels quite unrewarding to smack down some high'n mighty baron who's only got maybe 150-200 troops with him. Not to mention it feels somewhat silly for landholding nobility to travel around with what essentially boils down to a mid-sized mercenary company. When you, the actual mercenary have maybe twice their numbers.
I suggest switching Fireball for Missile Storm.
On magical topic, Magic for the player is pretty balanced. I got 12 Magical Power, Archmage Robes, and Archmage Hat. I can do 7 Missle Storms with what I got. The spell is good for fighting Cavalry, but if they have more than a few horses, then I am dry by the time the infantry come in. NPC mages are only strong in large amounts. I got 87, with most of the Adept or Journeymen, and even in a Orc Raider party of 70, we still get a few of them reaching our wall of Wizardry.
Still, I think 40k for the robes is a touch to much.
On magical topic, Magic for the player is pretty balanced. I got 12 Magical Power, Archmage Robes, and Archmage Hat. I can do 7 Missle Storms with what I got. The spell is good for fighting Cavalry, but if they have more than a few horses, then I am dry by the time the infantry come in. NPC mages are only strong in large amounts. I got 87, with most of the Adept or Journeymen, and even in a Orc Raider party of 70, we still get a few of them reaching our wall of Wizardry.
Still, I think 40k for the robes is a touch to much.
CHIMouttathisplane
Sergeant
That doesn't even make sense. And it makes magic completely useless compared to archery, firearms and crossbows in sieges. Magic is for AoE siege bombing. Taking that away is like taking away the range off polearms.mercav said:
mercav
Regular
Why doesn't it make sense? A quiver of arrows can only kill around 30 enemies assuming each one hits and is a headshot. If a single fireball is killing the entire batch, in less time and ignoring shields, then this isn't and issue? The fireballs also require less player skill and replenish by waiting around.
M&B single player siege battles are very different than normal battles because the AI bunches up a lot more.
There is a thread started by Lilly112 about how fireball, the biggest AoE spell, makes conquering ridiculously easy.
I am not saying that spell AoE damage should be eliminated during sieges but it should certainly be reduced.
M&B single player siege battles are very different than normal battles because the AI bunches up a lot more.
There is a thread started by Lilly112 about how fireball, the biggest AoE spell, makes conquering ridiculously easy.
I am not saying that spell AoE damage should be eliminated during sieges but it should certainly be reduced.
I feel like being a magic user is imbalanced in all versions so far. Clearly the combat abilities of all classes needs to continue to be tweaked and updated, but I'm talking about the cost of items. Specifically, I feel like it's imbalanced to recruit first tier units that quickly upgrade to higher tiers which have equipment that it would take a significant amount of time through the normal course of the game to acquire for yourself. Even by the third tier I believe they start casting lightning spells. Getting this spell and a full set of third tier wizard equipment takes a good while, and it feels strange to be a guy decked out in first tier stuff, casting only the most basic stuff, commanding guys who are clearly more powerful than yourself. I think there's two solutions, probably best if both are applied:
1) Reduce the cost of low and mid tier wizard equipment significantly. I also think the high level stuff should be reduced in price, but not by so much. The spells are priced reasonably I think, though I think there should be more of course (will detail some ideas in the skills/powers thread)!
2) Increase the amount of experience wizard units need to upgrade, and the cost of upgrading them. I know you just reduced the cost of employing wizards and clerics, which is fine I think (haven't extensively tested it) but the cost of upgrading should be a bit higher IMHO.
1) Reduce the cost of low and mid tier wizard equipment significantly. I also think the high level stuff should be reduced in price, but not by so much. The spells are priced reasonably I think, though I think there should be more of course (will detail some ideas in the skills/powers thread)!
2) Increase the amount of experience wizard units need to upgrade, and the cost of upgrading them. I know you just reduced the cost of employing wizards and clerics, which is fine I think (haven't extensively tested it) but the cost of upgrading should be a bit higher IMHO.
DoctorPringles
Veteran
Are we sure we're going in the correct direction, as far as balancing mages? I don't believe money is a huge issue right now, as it's ridiculously easy to get capital in this mod. I think, rather, that we should focus on making it take a LOT longer for spellcasting troops to level up to their next tiers. I think we should have the experience requirements doubled or tripled, to make it more difficult to get stronger mages and to make them all the more valuable to find and retain. This should, in my opinion, fix a lot of the balancing issues simply by making mages far less common.
Also, if there's some way to make the Ridas villages give far fewer mages when recruiting, like say a max of 2 when at relation 0, that would help as well. We should *not* be able to get a full army of high-level spellcasters without an insane amount of work. Mages in DnD are just not that common, because it takes years and years of study and practice and even then, many will kill themselves while attempting spells.
Also, if there's some way to make the Ridas villages give far fewer mages when recruiting, like say a max of 2 when at relation 0, that would help as well. We should *not* be able to get a full army of high-level spellcasters without an insane amount of work. Mages in DnD are just not that common, because it takes years and years of study and practice and even then, many will kill themselves while attempting spells.
DoctorPringles said:
I think you're probably right here. Armies of mages just don't feel right. I would be a lot more comfortable if they were smaller bands of more elite units, and harder to train. They should rely on golems and regular fighters/mercenaries more if possible. I've made some other suggestions (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,305004.msg7297050.html#msg7297050) as far as balancing mages as well (TLDR: making different specialties of magic, which would create troop trees for the wizards and thus introduce more strategy as far as party composition), which also applies to other classes I hope to see introduced (druids, rangers, shamen, same link).
Powerful magic should be less common to balance the fact that it is powerful.
In regards to cost though, I still think this should be rebalanced. While upgrading to more powerful mages should be harder and costlier, I think there should be more spells and options for a noob magic user. If anything, make the best spells even more expensive and increase the variety of lower level, cheaper spells which will make using magic more interesting.
I've also made some suggestions to increase the variety of staves (see here: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,305003.msg7296895.html#msg7296895), which could be another money sink that helps to make the case that in general, lower to mid tier magic equipment could be less expensive so as to increase your options as a mage. 'Cause to me, part of the draw of magic is that it's powerful, yes, but also that there's a spell for every situation. Not that it should be easy to be powerful in every situation.
Yokoshima
Regular
AoE magic is far to god-like. Limit the number it can hit, turn friendly fire on, something like that. With 50 units, ~30 as casters, I am able to take towns with 400+ and only loose 5 or 6 units. On the field it's much the same story. Even if it takes a while to train mages, if you know how to train correctly (have a lot of x unit, don't level up 'till most or all are ready) its not that big of a deal and once you get a base of them you just steamroll everything. That and vanilla troops are useless now. Also the AI from what I have seen has no idea how to sneak. Being a lich could also use some more benefits. -5 stats and you can't have anyone with white bolts around you (hurts the whole party) does in no way offset +3 int. and charm immunity. It could have something like the ability to summon better undead (since right now they break free often and you can't have most types of troops in your party, pretty big setbacks) and control them better as well. Or unique magic, hp regen (you are a magical undead after all) , etc.
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