[Suggestion]Two thrust alternatives for spears/pikes

[inox_ionizer]

I'm suggesting spears and pikes lose the ability to swing, and instead get a second thrust, which is higher than the current one. It is triggered and blocked in the same way as an overhead swing. The second thrust would also be usable when wielding a spear 1-handed. To balance out any advantages given by this, polearms (especially the awlpike and ashwood pike) could be slowed down. Another good idea is the 'hot zones' thing, or reducing backpedalling speed. Those suggestions should be discussed in their own threads, but note that I'm not saying polearms should be more powerful, just a bit different.

Players would be more encouraged to use the spears in combination with shields, as wielding it two-handed will not give so many offensive advantages (though it should still be a bit faster and more powerful). Hopefully, it would also be slightly less effective in one on one fights, but retain it's usefulness in group fights.

Other than that, the changes are mostly aesthetic, as pikes already have only two types of attack. Their overhand attack would be a bit faster due to being a thrust, but that can be balanced out through other means.

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

This sounds more useful than the current overhead attack for pikes.  For spears I'm certainly not in favor, though.

 

[inox_ionizer]

Why not? Would it make them too weak? I thought a bit about three or four thrust types, but I think it would be too hard to see the difference for the opponent.

 

[AoC]

Why not Scientia Excelsa ? It would add more depth into spear + shield combination, and would be step in good direction. I support this suggestion.

Of course it would need balancing, thats the point of the beta.

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

Why not Scientia Excelsa ? It would add more depth into spear + shield combination, and would be step in good direction. I support this suggestion.

Of course it would need balancing, thats the point of the beta.

He mentions removing the ability to swing spears.  If this was added as a second attack for shield users, fine, but leave the side-swings for 2H spears alone.

 

[AoC]

Why not Scientia Excelsa ? It would add more depth into spear + shield combination, and would be step in good direction. I support this suggestion.

Of course it would need balancing, thats the point of the beta.

He mentions removing the ability to swing spears.  If this was added as a second attack for shield users, fine, but leave the side-swings for 2H spears alone.

I'm 99 % sure it's replacement for overhead swing, not side-swings.

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

In that case, fine.  We're a bit touchy about our spears, we Hoboknights. 

 

[Leto]

In that case, fine.  We're a bit touchy about our spears, we Hoboknights. 

yep I'm cool with

Why not Scientia Excelsa ? It would add more depth into spear + shield combination, and would be step in good direction. I support this suggestion.

Of course it would need balancing, thats the point of the beta.

He mentions removing the ability to swing spears.  If this was added as a second attack for shield users, fine, but leave the side-swings for 2H spears alone.

I'm 99 % sure it's replacement for overhead swing, not side-swings.

because, 2 attacks mean 100% parrys!

 

[RalliX]

Guys, we can't be asking for stuff like this with the release coming soon, we can't have these difficult suggestions adding entire concepts to the game.
I doubt Armagan & co would be able to tackle something like this until after the beta. Unless I overestimate the difficulty.

 

[inox_ionizer]

I thought release still was quite a bit away? I don't know how difficult it will be either, so you might be right.

I'm 99 % sure it's replacement for overhead swing, not side-swings.

I meant it would replace all swings. I don't think they would become much weaker, seeing as thrusts are faster than swings, and blocking upwards seems to be more difficult than blocking to the sides.

I have been giving it some more thought, and I could agree standard spears should keep the sideswings, considering they aren't very long compared to other polearms (like lances). War Spear? Maybe. How about removing sideswings, but increasing range a bit? Hard to judge these things without having tried a two-thrust system.

 

[Ursca]

Guys, we can't be asking for stuff like this with the release coming soon, we can't have these difficult suggestions adding entire concepts to the game.
I doubt Armagan & co would be able to tackle something like this until after the beta. Unless I overestimate the difficulty.

It's a single animation and a line of code.

And if spears no longer deal damage past the tip, I'd like to see 'side' thrusts too. It would help to make them more dynamic at least.

 

[Phallas]

remove swipes from spears? go read my post on the "vieger...spear too fast thread"
In fact this is where you should have posted your suggestion, rather then start a new thread.

 

[darkhorse]

Removing sideswings from spears would ruin the item not necessarily because they would be too weak, but more that fighting with them would become intensely boring and repetitive with only one or two attacks. Without sideswinging, skill would play no factor in the effectiveness of the spear, only willingness to spam the crap out of everyone.

 

[inox_ionizer]

remove swipes from spears? go read my post on the "vieger...spear too fast thread"
In fact this is where you should have posted your suggestion, rather then start a new thread.

That thread is about the speed of spears, this thread is about something rather different. If you are referring to your own post, that was posted after this thread.

Removing sideswings from spears would ruin the item not necessarily because they would be too weak, but more that fighting with them would become intensely boring and repetitive with only one or two attacks. Without sideswinging, skill would play no factor in the effectiveness of the spear, only willingness to spam the crap out of everyone.

If they are spammable, their speed should be toned down. And wile thrusting is slightly faster than swinging, a sideswing hits anything in an almost 180 degree arc in front of you, so I wouldn't say sideswinging takes any more skill. If there is any difference, it takes less. I did half-way change my mind about the spears though, so now I'm mainly advocating replacing just the overhead swing. If that suggestion is implemented, we can see if sideswings should stay or not.

 

[Phallas]

its not the only weapon taking advantage of the current backpedal/strafing speeds.

 

[inox_ionizer]

But that is not what this is about.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

This could be cool for some polearms at least. I expect a high thrust was more common than an overhead swing with every thrusting polearm anyway.

One issue that might arise comes from other all the swords using high thrusts. If high thrust for spear is blocked up, but for swords it's blocked down, that would add confusion. New players are often confused by the fact that sword thrusts are blocked with a downward mouse movement. I'd somewhat like to see these changed to low thrusts really (or at least, thrusts which come from a low ready position), since that way makes more sense with the blocking.

Edit: In the next day or so, I'll probably post an in-game picture of a high thrust ready position for polearms in my thread about replacing the ready positions (which I will shamelessly advertise).

 

[dstemmer]

Question: high thrust requires an overhand spear grip. How would you animate changing the spear grip? Front hand flips over, then the back hand? Would it be possible to animate this from an arbitrary hand position? No other animations require changing your the way you hold a weapon mid-attack, unless I'm mistaken.

 

[inox_ionizer]

One issue that might arise comes from other all the swords using high thrusts. If high thrust for spear is blocked up, but for swords it's blocked down, that would add confusion. New players are often confused by the fact that sword thrusts are blocked with a downward mouse movement. I'd someone like to see these changed to low thrusts really (or at least, thrusts which come from a low ready position), since that way makes more sense with the blocking.

Yeah, I guess that would make things a bit more natural to new players.

Question: high thrust requires an overhand spear grip. How would you animate changing the spear grip? Front hand flips over, then the back hand? Would it be possible to animate this from an arbitrary hand position? No other animations require changing your the way you hold a weapon mid-attack, unless I'm mistaken.

Could it be done by having two underhand thrusts, or would it be too difficult for the opponent to see the difference before it's too late? Would changing grip be viable considering the time it would take? As for animations, I don't really know.

 

[Beaver]

I thought a bit about three or four thrust types, but I think it would be too hard to see the difference for the opponent.

I actually quite like that idea. Replacing swings with thrusts in different direction.
But as you say, it might be too hard to see were the thrust is going. Maybe a better weapon collision system would fix that?

One issue that might arise comes from other all the swords using high thrusts. If high thrust for spear is blocked up, but for swords it's blocked down, that would add confusion. New players are often confused by the fact that sword thrusts are blocked with a downward mouse movement. I'd somewhat like to see these changed to low thrusts really (or at least, thrusts which come from a low ready position), since that way makes more sense with the blocking.

I agree that the sword thrust should be changed to underhand. I really don't like it the way it is now. It's not only hard to block and confusing for new players, but it looks stupid too.