Suggestion to improve viability of 2h

[method man]

Ok, so we all know that 2h's aren't very viable in the skirmish meta. Right now, they are too vulnerable to archers, and they get shredded before they can enter the battle. So how about this: 2h weapons can stop arrows. Basically, you would have to block as you charge (slowing you down), and then your character will swat arrows out of the way with their weapon. I think this could lead to some really badass 2h plays, and they would be able to incorporate themselves into the meta as dedicated archer killers. Thoughts?

 

[Percival!!]

Ok, so we all know that 2h's aren't very viable in the skirmish meta. Right now, they are too vulnerable to archers, and they get shredded before they can enter the battle. So how about this: 2h weapons can stop arrows. Basically, you would have to block as you charge (slowing you down), and then your character will swat arrows out of the way with their weapon. I think this could lead to some really badass 2h plays, and they would be able to incorporate themselves into the meta as dedicated archer killers. Thoughts?

Honestly just give them backflipping and high jumps so we can have jedi duels with 2h classes.

 

[JukeBox]

Fully agreed...Although I think 2h's should be able to stop throwing weapons as well...They could swing them out of the air like a badass. I love 2h's they are my favorite.

 

[Septimius Tullius]

How about we just let them fly behind archers so they can kill them

 

[Mabons]

No I want to be able to let out a war cry that has archers triple themselves rendering them incapacitated.

 

[[VK] Shoomama]

2 handers should be able to maim players and take off their limbs like so - this will balance them.

You can see an example of this when King Arthur (white knight with 2 handed sword) maims the black knight.

 

[WOLFGEIST]

Knowing how toxic you are and your history, I assume this is just another clever troll.

With that said, the mechanic already exists (at least in design) in single player as a 2h perk. The description goes something like this: "Changing block direction can block projectiles".

Yeah, I definitely think the Shock Trooper class would benefit from this: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...f-2-handed-classes.426961/page-3#post-9484653

There's a 2h perk in single player that is supposed to allow you to block projectiles by blocking left to right or vise versa. This would be a great perk for the shock troopers (does this perk work yet in sp?). You could make projectiles or any attack under 30 damage unable to flinch the shock troopers.

At least allow us to chamber projectiles. Granted, I would be the only one able to actually do it, but it would be a step forward and progress is progress.

 

[Younes]

Knowing how toxic you are and your history, I assume this is just another clever troll.

With that said, the mechanic already exists (at least in design) in single player as a 2h perk. The description goes something like this: "Changing block direction can block projectiles".

Yeah, I definitely think the Shock Trooper class would benefit from this: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...f-2-handed-classes.426961/page-3#post-9484653



At least allow us to chamber projectiles. Granted, I would be the only one able to actually do it, but it would be a step forward and progress is progress.

Terrible idea, only having certain units make use of such a powerful mechanic is bad. You would keep the shock trooper weak as a unit but except everyone to be able to use the mechanic only tied to that unit. It's just a path to balance disaster.

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

Or...you know..just give them a small shield perk.

 

[WOLFGEIST]

Terrible idea, only having certain units make use of such a powerful mechanic is bad. You would keep the shock trooper weak as a unit but except everyone to be able to use the mechanic only tied to that unit. It's just a path to balance disaster.

Every variable can be configured and tuned. The way I see it, it would be about as viable as blocking a thrust with a left to right active block which is fairly difficult to do and the window would likely be smaller with a projectile moving so fast. I like the idea of the shock trooper being a high risk high reward unit, as it stands there's no real way to utilize them against players who are good with projectiles.

I don't know what you're imagining, like holding block down wouldn't automatically block arrows. I can't see implementing this mechanic as I described above making shock troopers OP or making ranged units less viable.

 

[Younes]

Every variable can be configured and tuned. The way I see it, it would be about as viable as blocking a thrust with a left to right active block which is fairly difficult to do and the window would likely be smaller with a projectile moving so fast. I like the idea of the shock trooper being a high risk high reward unit, as it stands there's no real way to utilize them against players who are good with projectiles.

I don't know what you're imagining, like holding block down wouldn't automatically block arrows. I can't see implementing this mechanic as I described above making shock troopers OP or making ranged units less viable.

The problem being described here is that the high reward only comes into place when you master this mechanic.

Without this mechanic being used, the class becomes high risk, low reward. Chambers or blocks are not thing that are essential to any class, all classes can do it and all classes are balanced around those.

If you tie the mechanic and balance to one class, it becomes very hard for players to be able to play this class, considering there is already few options with the class system, i believe tying it to the class is too much. Unless the class system is expanded with more classes i don't see it being tied to the class.

 

[WOLFGEIST]

The problem being described here is that the high reward only comes into place when you master this mechanic.

Without this mechanic being used, the class becomes high risk, low reward. Chambers or blocks are not thing that are essential to any class, all classes can do it and all classes are balanced around those.

If you tie the mechanic and balance to one class, it becomes very hard for players to be able to play this class, considering there is already few options with the class system, i believe tying it to the class is too much. Unless the class system is expanded with more classes i don't see it being tied to the class.

Fair enough, although I don't see anything inherently wrong with this considering as it stands, nobody in competitive skirmish chooses the shock trooper class as it is.

However, this could all be mitigated with my suggestion of the shock trooper class dealing 150% damage to horses and shields and taking 20% less damage from projectiles. Even if that was implemented right now, I can't really imagine competitive skirmish players fully utilizing the class.

Of course with any mechanic or class there is the concern with making it overpowered and creating a detriment to the game balance. For this reason it's always good to make very small changes in terms of tuning and go from there.


A good baseline would be to get the Skirmish mode to a point where the shock trooper class was viable for competitive play and go from there. Just making the shock trooper class viable at all would really mix things up and create more interesting compositions and gameplay, so from that perspective I think that should be the first goal (without going too far and outraging a bunch of people).

 

[Younes]

Fair enough, although I don't see anything inherently wrong with this considering as it stands, nobody in competitive skirmish chooses the shock trooper class as it is.

However, this could all be mitigated with my suggestion of the shock trooper class dealing 150% damage to horses and shields and taking 20% less damage from projectiles. Even if that was implemented right now, I can't really imagine competitive skirmish players fully utilizing the class.

Of course with any mechanic or class there is the concern with making it overpowered and creating a detriment to the game balance. For this reason it's always good to make very small changes in terms of tuning and go from there.


A good baseline would be to get the Skirmish mode to a point where the shock trooper class was viable for competitive play and go from there. Just making the shock trooper class viable at all would really mix things up and create more interesting compositions and gameplay, so from that perspective I think that should be the first goal (without going too far and outraging a bunch of people).

I agree, but i think the shock unit being very inefficient in skirmish also has a lot to do with the map design. The maps encourage a lot of open spaces and angles for archers to shoot from. There isn't really a map that specially favors 2 handers.

 

[WOLFGEIST]

I agree, but i think the shock unit being very inefficient in skirmish also has a lot to do with the map design. The maps encourage a lot of open spaces and angles for archers to shoot from. There isn't really a map that specially favors 2 handers.

Yeah I agree in the sense that trying to balance 6 classes for 6 factions over 3+ game modes each with 3+ maps is incredibly difficult (consider a game like Starcraft that only has 3 races is still incredibly difficult to balance, although there's much more variety in unit types).

Aside from that, my argument pertains strictly to skirmish since it's the only real competitive game mode, and it's the only game mode where the shock trooper class has no place, and it's also the game mode that I think with the right changes, the viability of the shock trooper class could help mitigate several issues such as the over saturation of cavalry, archers/projectiles and the over reliance on shields.

Map design is certainly a factor, but my counter argument to that is that shock troopers can ALMOST be viable as it stands right now with good use of flanking and stealth. They just need a bit of incentive, I don't think the game mode can do anything but benefit from incentivizing a class that's strength is pure melee (i.e. not shields, not cavalry, not primarily projectiles) and I don't think additional damage to shields or horses or reduced damage from projectiles will make that particular class overpowered.

With that said there are additional issues that pertain to this class but i'm hoping they're addressed with the next patch. For example, i'm not a huge fan of the figure 8/180 running/spinning which is amplified with 2h weapons. It can be mitigated by not chasing but I feel it's just not fun to play against or to use.

Realistically all we can do is wait for that patch and go from there, but it's fun to theorize and discuss, at least for me.

 

[Younes]

Yeah I agree in the sense that trying to balance 6 classes for 6 factions over 3+ game modes each with 3+ maps is incredibly difficult (consider a game like Starcraft that only has 3 races is still incredibly difficult to balance, although there's much more variety in unit types).

Aside from that, my argument pertains strictly to skirmish since it's the only real competitive game mode, and it's the only game mode where the shock trooper class has no place, and it's also the game mode that I think with the right changes, the viability of the shock trooper class could help mitigate several issues such as the over saturation of cavalry, archers/projectiles and the over reliance on shields.

Map design is certainly a factor, but my counter argument to that is that shock troopers can ALMOST be viable as it stands right now with good use of flanking and stealth. They just need a bit of incentive, I don't think the game mode can do anything but benefit from incentivizing a class that's strength is pure melee (i.e. not shields, not cavalry, not primarily projectiles) and I don't think additional damage to shields or horses or reduced damage from projectiles will make that particular class overpowered.

With that said there are additional issues that pertain to this class but i'm hoping they're addressed with the next patch. For example, i'm not a huge fan of the figure 8/180 running/spinning which is amplified with 2h weapons. It can be mitigated by not chasing but I feel it's just not fun to play against or to use.

Realistically all we can do is wait for that patch and go from there, but it's fun to theorize and discuss, at least for me.

Goddamn, this just annoys me so much.

If by some miracle the warband customization was back, and you would let it run for a few months, from the data gathered from these they could have balanced the current classes with that data so much more.

Let's say there is a shock infantry build from the community naturally and from the data gathered, the top equipment picked from those classes would be a shield, a two hander and a bunch of armor that gives both a balance between mobility and armor.

If a very strong meta rises, like for example an archer spam or a spam of javelins, people would naturally over time start taking shields, when this is done the people who take too much javelins will also try and balance this by taking less javelins and other methods to fight eachother, and so forth and so forth.



I will be honest, i don't see the class system at its current state able to be balanced. Perks have to be separate from each gamemode or we will just keep going on and on about balance in gamemodes.

 

[Aprikosenmann]

Or give them strong armor

 

[WOLFGEIST]

Or give them strong armor

I know this is a troll thread but this is really the simplest and most direct way to make the class viable. It would really be interesting to see the shock trooper class as it is right now but with 40 armor default. One of the primary issues with the class is that so many of the "options" are just bad. With the voulgier for example, you can pick armor, 2h sword, or military bill... but the Voulge itself is so fast and deadly, picking anything but the armor just really doesn't make sense. And for the 2nd option you have pike, franceskas, and... what is it, javelins? Anyways, the pike is decent but almost everyone picks the franceskas. We need REAL choices, each one having some viability. The berserker is even worse. The first option is armor, 2h hammer, or great axe. The 2nd is long sword (lol), throwing axes, or javs. The 2nd option isn't even an option, you pick throwing axes, end of story. The first option comes down to great axe vs. armor, I think most people pick great axe for the novelty. But again, we need real options.

Specializing in anti cav (additional damage to horses), anti shield, or reduced damage from projectiles would be a lot more fun and interesting imo.

But yeah, aside from all of that, giving the shock troops high armor by default would be a quick and easy starting point to increase their viability.

 

[Shatti]

HELL NO
i'm doing this in skyrim by unlocking a shout and it's good for fantasy game
not good for a potentially realistic game

 

[Matt The Lord]

 

[XDaron]

deflecting arrows should also send the arrows back at the archers, and our swords should glow and we should also be able to force choke archers from distance

now, being serious about it, I love two handed classes, but man I feel like they are destined to a be gimmick class in competitive, tw is trying to make them viable with crushthrough and speed buffs, but I dont think it will be healthy for the game

honestly just give them a small shield perk, pwease uwu

The berserker is even worse. The first option is armor, 2h hammer, or great axe. The 2nd is long sword (lol)

I have mad respect for anyone that uses the long sword, it's the superior weapon