[Suggestion] Reworking the Khergits

[Albretch]

Using that logic, I demand


-NORD/RHODOK HEAVY CAVALRY (Because what they have now is not blaanced/fun)

-NORD/VAEGIRS CROSSBOWMEN (To blance thigns out vs Rhodoks/Swadia)

-MAKE NORDS INFANTRY WEAKER ("cause they're too strong and good)

-SWADIAN CAVALRY IS O.P.: LOWER THIER STATS/GEAR/HORSES/EVERYTHING (horses=evil, that's why we're bashing on the Khergits, right?)


/end satire

Seriously, what you're asking is to REMOVE what makes a Fraction unique and making it some melting pot of classes so that people are not too Alienated by them, and that will surely bring it's lot fo Naked Khergit skirmisher running around too.

Just what we need, more naked people running around...

And the Ha need his shield; he's a raider, not some 'stay there and fire a folley' rank-and-file archer.

 

[Welcome_To_Hell]

Horse Archers


Increase the accuracy penalty of bows while on horseback. Let horse archers remain accurate enough to take potshots while riding by, but make it clearly more beneficial for horse archers to dismount and find a good place to shoot from. A sort of dragoon archer.

Take some points from Horse Archery skill and put it into throwing weapon skill and proficiency. Make them deadly shots with throwing weapons, on horseback or not.

Give the Horse Archer access to javelins, jarids and throwing spears.

Increase athletics some to match infantry's speed.

I absolutely disagree with the horse archery suggestions as much as i find Horse Archers Annoying to fight against.

What is the point being a horse archer if player cannot effectively engage targets on horseback? Might as well be a usual archer that can buy saddle horse to move around.

As for the javelins that could be a separate class where the purpose would be to ride close to the target and throw things at it than make a getaway (Norman tactics against Saxon shield wall)

And if most players find the faction annoying might as well remove it from the multilayer game since everybody hates to be on the business end of a horse archer, so they map poll and ***** on forums.

 

[CryptoCactus]

My suggestions:


Khergit Archer:
Derive from and replace HA. Buff athletics to be almost on par with other factions' ranged units. Archery skill should be greater than Nords but less than Vaegirs. Access to all bows sans war bow and long bow; all arrow types; sabres; same armors/helmets as current HA. Starts with no horse, but has access to steppe horse and courser for cheaper than any other faction.

Khergit Raider:
Derive from and replace lancer. Buff athletics to be almost on par with other factions' infantry units. Power throw equal to the Nords, weapon skills equivalent to Rhodoks, but with less polearms and a good deal more throwing skill. Starts with javelins, sabre, spear, small round shield. Access to all throwing spear-type things. Access to two-handed sabre-like blade, like the dadao from that one other thread. Same armors and helms as lancer. Spears only, no lances (though maybe additional spears - boar spear, military scythe.. I dunno). Starts with no horse, but access to steppe horse and hunter for cheaper than other factions.



I mostly just pulled this out of my.. er, out of the air, but I think it would make Khergs an actual viable ground force, while still in keeping with their "light" feel and encouraging, but not mandating, cav. And yes, I know you don't currently have to take a horse as a Kherg even now, but their abysmal athletics and relative weakness on the ground does, for all intents and purposes, mandate cav.

 

[AoC]

Main problem is how horses work in this game.

Khergits would be more fun, if only there would be collisions between mounts, collision between mount and terrain, dismounting rider without killing horse, trampling your own team members, tweaked trampling, increased althletics for riders, forced dismounting cause damage to exrider.

All those would make horses more fun for everyone.

 

[Hethwill]

As before it isn't anther class that khergit need, but a careful review of the possibilities of the Lancer to act as dismounted infantry when the occasion arises. Small amount of tweaking is needed for a next Patch for all to test.

Par Athletics with other Infantry.
1H proficiencies alongside with other infantry.
Reduced proficiency in Polearms.

The same as an HA can somehow be a foot archer to a point, a Lancer would be a swordsman/javelineer to a point.
Khergit has two classes only but can multiply the roles if some little tweaks are introduced.

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

As before it isn't anther class that khergit need, but a careful review of the possibilities of the Lancer to act as dismounted infantry when the occasion arises. Small amount of tweaking is needed for a next Patch for all to test.

Par Athletics with other Infantry.
1H proficiencies alongside with other infantry.
Reduced proficiency in Polearms.

The same as an HA can somehow be a foot archer to a point, a Lancer would be a swordsman/javelineer to a point.
Khergit has two classes only but can multiply the roles if some little tweaks are introduced.

I don't like the idea of a lancer being a capable foot soldier. That essentially means if their horse is killed they have a second chance. They can just keep fighting as a foot soldier. I'd rather people have to make a choice when picking classes. Do you want to be good on foot or good on horseback? And you'd choose either mounted infantry or lancers accordingly.

 

[Welcome_To_Hell]

I love the idea of lancer being a capable foot soldier. In real life if a knight gets dismounted it does not meen he will be completley useless without a horse, it is quite the opposite.

I am all for the idea of cavalry having stats on par with infantry!
All of the stats!

 

[Reapy]

Sticking with the original post / ideas here. I agree that khergits need some balance. Reading test's thread he hit the problem right on the money. Khergit fights on the battle server that I have seen go to fruition with a large population tend to sort of go a few ways.

On field by river, when khergits are on the side that usually takes the large bridge, I've seen the game flow where the first round is sort of mixed. Some players go khergit lance, others archer. Meanwhile, the other team always picks every anti-horse weapon and class they like. I usually go archer if I can, or grab a pike or something. The non K team usually then moves into the trees along the river, and there is sort of a mixed fight where the K usually lose, but not my too much. The next round, even more players have $$ and grab more anti cav things, and the K usually go down harder. Then, after a round or two, the K players all have an epiphany as they realize that the other side is camping hard, so they all go horse archer. Then the K team wins the next few rounds by staying away and picking off all the slow guys with spears, until the cycle repeats itself, and that is one of the more dynamic ones.

I've also been in ones where it is total blow out in khergit favor. I think it is almost directly proportional to the amount of cover on the map. In snowy village with rhodics vs khergit, about the only strat I saw working  as rhodic against  mixed HA and Lancers was to go up behind that one house in the corner with a few pikes and the rest xbows. If the pike guys keep their eye on the horse killing and there is some INF to swarm the falling guys AND the xbows are discouraging horse archers, it works out as a somewhat neat fight. Otherwise going out in the area without too much cover you just get shot and/or run over at any angle.

And perhaps this is what the crux of the problem is, and maybe it is a problem with ALL factions.... because of the unit variety the rest of the factions have, we rarely see entire cav teams, unless the fight is going poorly. Khergits sort of highlights the +/- balance of an all cav team.

But yeah, I think the reason people poll off the maps with khergits is really, do you want to A be a horse archer, or B be cav. Many players want to be infantry, and play against other infantry. When khergit comes up, that chance is gone. You ARE playing against or as cav the whole time.

So I sort of like the suggestions here, but I don't know that it will entirely fix the problems. I can see the concept though throughout this thread... I think people want the Khergits to be a fast moving faction, IE they can move across the map and set up in odd places in the blink of an eye, and just as quickly withdraw if they wanted. The problem is, I'm not too sure positioning is that important in this game yet. There really aren't stronger corners of the map to hold (which is good), and coming at people from two sides or something isn't that effective. Meanwhile, the lag time to mount and dismount horses is going to get khergits killed by tons of arrows and throwing weapons if they try to skirmish on their horses.  Maybe they could allow the khergits to "hop" into the saddle really fast or something.

But yeah, either you leave horse archer in as an effective role, or you take it out. It already is somewhat dangerous out there on a horse without having a shield up. If the archery comes into line with mounting as a regular archer now, you pretty much have to practically stop the horse to deliver the arrow at any range, and being on the horse makes you a really big target for other ranged weapons.

The biggest thing I think, as has been said above, is to increase the variety of roles you can play as khergit. Maybe there needs to be that jav throwing skirmisher role. Give them free javs that are stacks of 10 or something.

But again, playing khergits means you are just going to have to deal with an all CAV team, which isn't a lot of variety, no matter what you give the guy up on the horse. Either way you are going to get surrounded and have to keep an eye on every directions to stay alive, and that means you are going to need to get your back against a wall or near a tree or something. The primary way to play against khergits is ALWAYS going to be to turtle, even if they were all just lancers.

I'm not really sure how to fix it besides only allowing them on specific maps tailored to them as a faction or adding in a foot troop.  I don't know what would work here.

 

[test]

Horses archery has seen a lot of tweaks over the months.  I don't think they've ever been drastically over/underpowered, but they force a very narrow/boring playstyle where only a small number of players get to participate in the action on a large Battle server.  Infantry and cavalry doesn't get to have any fun, they just hold block and watch dots shuffle around out on the horizon while the archers engage in a sniping war until people get impatient or Master of the Field comes up.  Anyone who tries to go out into the field gets surrounded, dehorsed, ridden over, and shot down from multiple angles, so the best way to fight Khergits is to camp.  Maps with cover (any Siege map, Village, Ruins if Khergits get the farm side) results in a blowout against the Khergits.  It's to the point where players come up with "no Horse Archer" rules in deathmatch, and people instantly vote for faction changes or leave when Khergits come up in Battle.

At its core, Horse Archery is fun in single player when you're smashing through armies of AI - in MP there needs to be some tweaks to make it differ greatly since real players are involved and it should be fun for everyone.

I think one solution to make Khergit battles more enjoyable would be to require them to use bows while on horse at a much closer range. If they want to snipe from a distance, they have to dehorse, but in keeping the spirit of their design as the most mobile harassers, up their athletics so they can effectively skirmish while on foot.

Specifically:

-Globally reduce the accuracy of bows while on horse.  The default reticle (at a standstill) should be throwing weapon sized, increasing from there.  You'd still be able to harass horses and foot players, but at a range where they would have the chance to engage you from time to time as well.  I've been seeing non-Khergit archers steal horses to become horse archers - it's effective, even without points in Horse Archery.

-Buff Horse Archer athletics to two points above the other factions' archers.  They retain their status as the most mobile harassers in the game, so Khergits stay useful in cover maps.

-Buff Khergit archer throwing to a high number (7-, while increasing their throwing proficiency.  They'd become amazing medium range/in-close harassers to make up for their inability to pepper you with 70+ arrows from anywhere at any time while on horse.

-limit the best horse archer armor to the Tribal Warrior Outfit (or an equivalent).  They shouldn't be tanks because speed and mobility are their defense.


Overall, Khergits would retain their status as the most mobile harassers, with their ability to surround and skirmish troops with ranged attacks, but now on any map, and at fun distances where everyone is involved.

 

[Berserker Pride]

I mentioned this in another thread but one small change that the lancers need is a slight speed buff to their sabres.  Their all-purpose weapon became really lackluster when the stabs got a speed boost.  The sabres lack the stab and have always seemed slow to me.  The fastest sabre is only 100 speed.  All khergit sabres need a 2-3 boost in speed so the lancers and HA's can fight effectively on the ground.

EDIT: Had a little thought.  As far as I know sabres were more blade heavy weapons for a heavier deeper cut.  What that means is they would be quick to slash once the weapon was chambered but have slower recovery than a balanced straight sword.  This change would differentiate the sword types from each other and give advantages and disadvantages to both weapons.  This change would mostly affect khergits but vaegirs as well.

 

[Wonderboy2402]

Why must khergit's only have 2 class choices while the other factions can have three? There obviously needs to be some give with factions in multiplayer, i get that... but we saw Nords get a mounted unit, the horse scout. The Nords have superior infantry and now a light horse support. The reason for that move was that Nords needed some way for ride down or harass enemy foot troops/cav. 

So we have khergits who are supposed to be a superior cav faction... why can't they get some light infantry support?  A fast striking hard hitting class but still perhaps slightly inferior to heavier infantry but in a pinch can hold their own until the cav show up.  They do tend to get butchered and bloodied pretty badly on foot.  Someone even suggested a sling as a weapon... maybe not the most fitting for the era/lore but still an interesting weapon choice for targets without headgear or wearing light/no armor. And the 2H weapon choice of a Dao would also be welcome. Perhaps both in a single skimisher class. I want to see TaleWorlds at least try this skirmisher idea before writing off khergits.

 

[meketreff]

I don't think they will remove Khergits. It's a very fun faction to the game.

Considering it is unbalanced or most probably unfun you need to balance it or make it fun, within the faction's essence, you don't look to re-do or re-skin what the factions are.

I don't like the ideas that makes horses to be less effective then infantry. Like making them have better unmounted units etc, or dumping their stats. It all leads to horses being inneficient.

Maybe then they could make a 'infantry only' play mode, for ppl that dont like playing with horses. Khergits are horses/HA and you need horses or archers to reach them, and horses are a important source in the game for anyone. Infantry should be mixed accordingly and has a backup of sorts.

They can complain about unbalacement regarding a mounted unit when there is a natural unbalancement against infantry towards mounted ones in many situations. You need it full or a proper mix.

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

I do think that Khergits should get a major athletics buff to make up for their lack of infantry.  If nothing else, they definitely need that.

 

[Teala]

I think test is going in the right direction, I just wouldn't go to far to the extreme with it.  I still say my ideal would work if the developers would try it.  The we can balance them out from there. 

Tactics will always win battles...I know some of you do not believe in using them, being that you just feel you must play Rambo...but playing as a team is what will always prevail and trust me once this game goes live and players from games like Planetside, BF2 and other team play games(who are team oriented players) will control maps.  Ever played BF2 infantry only?  Ever seen two squads working together to take the flags?  They decimate the enemy and capture the flags.  You can try to stop them, but you will most likely fail.  They work as a team, using voice chat and I can tell you(having been a part of a gaming guild that did just this) you win and you do it consistently.  You will see that here as well in this game once it goes live. 

 

[Hethwill]

The most fun part, before 633 kicked in was that most kills from archer came from point blank shots. And that's with the old aim. Was risky business but i would play khergit all the time because of that. Was balanced for close shots not for this long distance arrow rain we have now. The deflection must come back.

And with only two basic classes, the balance has to provide those with something more. Lancers mustn't be knights but support cav or skirmish infantry.

 

[Seawied86]

if the khergits ever get an infantry based unit, it should be able to purchase a horse, but should not be included in default gear