[Suggestion] Reduce backpedaling speed...again

[Skyrage]

This game is running circles http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,8242.0.html

Manual block gameplay is thrown out the window with poor backpedaling speed because it's more effective to run past people and circle around their guards like helicopters.  Slow backspeed = nose to nose rubdowns and people running past each other spinning like WW1 dogfighters instead of focusing on rhythm, timing and distance.

The problem is, backspeed is not a cause for these problems you mentioned.
The probable causes are: insufficient inertia, powerspinning and being able to swing effectively at hugging distances.

Increased backsped is just another nasty workaround put in to counter issues with effects of other nasty workarounds, and itself will probably create its own set of problems, and more need for more workarounds.

This. Yay for people who see the actual problems

 

[test]

The problem is, backspeed is not a cause for these problems you mentioned.
The probable causes are: insufficient inertia, powerspinning and being able to swing effectively at hugging distances.

Increased backsped is just another nasty workaround put in to counter issues with effects of other nasty workarounds, and itself will probably create its own set of problems, and more need for more workarounds.

Backspeed isn't a workaround.  Having similar forward and backward movement speeds is necessary for distance control, especially in melee-centric games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIQ3S8uCWX0  This is how people move in weapon combat.  They maintain distance and read each other.  They don't stand nose to nose, trading hits like rock em sock em robots.  Fights that go to that range end in grappling/striking, which M&B doesn't have.

 

[dstemmer]

I don't find that video very convincing. There's no backpedaling in that video in the way that it's implemented in M&B -- there are short hops. They're moving in quick, discrete steps instead of continuously running forward or backward. This is, I presume, because they're trying to stay balanced.

I am personally in favor of a system like this for balance: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,82413.30.html

Combined with a directional dodge system (hold shift + w, a, s or d) I think a balance system would make combat a lot better. Dodges would have a minimal effect on your balance, but running forward or backpedaling would move the balance point off-center and make you easier to knock over. Nose-to-nose collisions would make one or the other person fall over, as could kick.

Just an anecdote -- I had a friend watch me play M&B the other day -- he said 'so is combat in this game mostly about running backward away from swings?' It was kind of telling that that was his first impression. In my opinion that's a strong indication that something needs to be changed.

 

[ignoble]

I'm wholly against slowing down the backwards movement speed again.

However, I'd much prefer back and forth (and potentially side) dashes to running backwards. This could be done as a sharp speed decrease after a certain period of moving backwards. 90 or 100% movement speed for 1-2 seconds of moving backwards, then slowed down to around 50% until you stop for a moment, move forward again, etc.

 

[Manitas]

Backspeed isn't a workaround.  Having similar forward and backward movement speeds is necessary for distance control, especially in melee-centric games.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIQ3S8uCWX0  This is how people move in weapon combat.  They maintain distance and read each other.

What is the video supposed to prove?
They don't run backwards, what we can see is normal footwork and short leaps.

Instead, they maintain distance with their weapons.
Wondered why they don't sprint into eachother? Because they would get impaled.
  That's not posible in Warband, for a number of reasons, one is because weapon collision is not implemented, thus workarounds are needed.
Another thing, in reality getting behind someone's back takes time, enough for the defender to take necessary actions.
  It's different in Warband, because proper inertia is not implemented, thus workarounds are needed.

Last but not least, running backwards as it is now looks ridiculous.

 

[dstemmer]

I'm wholly against slowing down the backwards movement speed again.

However, I'd much prefer back and forth (and potentially side) dashes to running backwards. This could be done as a sharp speed decrease after a certain period of moving backwards. 90 or 100% movement speed for 1-2 seconds of moving backwards, then slowed down to around 50% until you stop for a moment, move forward again, etc.

I really like this idea. Bravo! It's an intuitive way of implenting dashes. Double-tap in a direction makes you dash/dodge, then if you hold the button down you slow down to normal backward/forward/sidestep speed.

'Course, you'd need a new button for kick, but kick should be bound to a key anyway.

Again, I think it would really help if we had a balance system. That would solve a lot of the current range control problems -- sprinting forward too quickly into an attack would put you off-balance, which would allow the opponent to sidestep and knock you down/trip you. I encourage everyone to read the balance thread by Mithras that I plugged a few posts up and bump it.

 

[SteveO]

1h/shield is already godly with this patch, just hold W and stuff people's faces with stab/downward/stab combo and own everyone without them even being able to get a swing off.  With slow backpedaling it will be the ONLY way left to play.

I think the fast backpedaling introduced this manner of play.  You rarely saw it before, but now a days it's rampant.  The quick backpedal allows for you to 'hold W (or S) and stuff people's faces with stab' because it allows for the range build up without exposing yourself to a swing (the only way the person can catch up to you to hit with a swing is to move sideways, which gives up more ground to the backpeddler).

Slowing it slightly would allow the person chasing them to maneuver a bit so they could get in position to launch other attacks without losing too much ground. 

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

I believe the point was missed. We don't have hops and leaps, so don't remove backpedaling speed. Until we have those hops and leaps backpedaling is filling their place.

 

[dstemmer]

No, the point wasn't missed. Test says that backpedaling isn't a workaround. Others (including myself) claim it is, and that its role would be better filled by dashing/dodging functionality, combined with better body awareness/inertia.

I used to think fast backpedaling was a horrible mechanic. I've since changed my mind (it does at least reduce shield hugging) but I still think it's a stopgap measure. It's weird-looking, unrealistic, and occasionally frustrating if somebody can backpedal faster than you can run forward, and M&B can do a lot better.

 

[Dudro]

I agree that backpeddeling should be slowed, but stab does have drawbacks.  It's rendered nearly useless when fighting extremely close together.

 

[Skyrage]

I agree that backpeddeling should be slowed, but stab does have drawbacks.  It's rendered nearly useless when fighting extremely close together.

That's what kicks are for...then again, getting a kick in is a different story =\

 

[SteveO]

It's rendered nearly useless when fighting extremely close together.

That's the thing.  There's absolutely no reason the stabber and opponent should be fighting close together.  They can back up almost as fast (faster in the case of dismounted cav and archers) than the other can run forward.  So they just keep backing up, keep stabbing, and if the enemy opens up to swing, they get stabbed.  If the enemy tries to avoid the stab, the back peddling stabber just gains more ground. 

 

[alexthegrand]

backward movement is fine as is.

 

[Phallas]

the backpedal stab is the only defense against a block crusher when using a 1 handed wep.
When they remove block crushing they can reduce the backpedal.

On the other hand this game look really cheap with 2 handers backpedaling all over the place.

 

[Llew2]

I agree. Backpedaling is to fast.

It's rendered nearly useless when fighting extremely close together.

That's the thing.  There's absolutely no reason the stabber and opponent should be fighting close together.  They can back up almost as fast (faster in the case of dismounted cav and archers) than the other can run forward.  So they just keep backing up, keep stabbing, and if the enemy opens up to swing, they get stabbed.  If the enemy tries to avoid the stab, the back peddling stabber just gains more ground. 

Exactly.

 

[iamrawr]

Backpedaling speed is needed so players can read each other, without it there are no methods of distance control except an unreliable kick. 

Manual block gameplay is thrown out the window with poor backpedaling speed because it's more effective to run past people and circle around their guards like helicopters.  Slow backspeed = nose to nose rubdowns and people running past each other spinning like WW1 dogfighters instead of focusing on rhythm, timing and distance.

1h/shield is already godly with this patch, just hold W and stuff people's faces with stab/downward/stab combo and own everyone without them even being able to get a swing off.  With slow backpedaling it will be the ONLY way left to play.

wow you sure do make up alot of stuff in your fantasy world of 3 shields.

 

[dstemmer]

Why the hostility? He's not making stuff up, he's right about the 1h speed.

He's also right that we need some way of controlling distance in a fight. Fast backpedaling is the solution that the developers put in, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be another solution.