[Suggestion] Reduce backpedaling speed...again

[SteveO]

For some reason it was raised to 90% or something (not with this patch but the one before I believe).  Far too fast IMO.  I think it should go back to where it was or a happy medium between the two, but for the moment there's no large penalty for back pedaling. 

This would help counter the new 'backpedal-stab' strategy.  You can move side ways out of the stab but then you lose speed and lose ground (range) so the stab (which has superior range to a swing) really has no draw back. 

-  It's extremely fast and has a long range. 
-  If the person presses you, just stab them repeatedly. 
-  If they try to swing stab them again since the stab is much quicker than the swing. 
-  If they move sideways to avoid your stab just keep backing up since you've superior range and the further you get away reduces their chances to hit substantially. 

Not much viable counter to it other than stabbing them back (and then the game is just one big stab fest).  You can downward block a stab-spammer but whenever you try to attack they're just going to stab you again.  If you move sideways you lose your range thus giving more ground and advantage to them.

I think reducing the backpedaling speed would correct this and put it back in a more balancing state (IE this wasn't a viable tactic until backpedaling became extremely fast).  Right now people are using it as their only means of attack pretty much since there's little draw back (none, really) and little counter to the strategy.  Pretty much any swing you make (other than another stab) is too slow to avoid being stabbed in the time it takes to make your attack. 

Worst thing that happens for the stabber is you back into a wall or another enemy.  But 1 vs 1, stabbing is king.

 

[ELMO]

I think its fine tbh. And if they just keep stabbing at you, its damn easy to block then. Just keep blocking the stabs and get close to them, personally dont have any problems. Will make fighting boring if they reduce the speed again as you cant use footwork so well then.

 

[iamrawr]

it really ruins combat for archers vs infantry and demounted horseman vs infantry.

 

[SteveO]

I think its fine tbh. And if they just keep stabbing at you, its damn easy to block then.

I already acknowledged that.  Problem is, if they keep stabbing, there's little you can do to stop them since it's so fast.  You can swing and turn into the swing and try to get that perfect, but the stab is still much faster, so you'll need perfect timing where as teh stabber just needs luck: being 'whiffed' or having you throw off your swing by an n'th of a second.

Just keep blocking the stabs and get close to them

That's all well and good but when you get close, what then?  Any attack other than a stab will likely end up in you being, well stabbed.  You can kick (if you can get it to work) but that's about it.  In addition, you need to stop to kick which gives them yet more time to gain distance, and then you're back to square one.

  Will make fighting boring if they reduce the speed again as you cant use footwork so well then.

I disagree.  I think the current backpedaling speed reduces footwork even further, since there's no need to use footwork since you move pretty much at the same speed as the other person anyhow.

 

[dstemmer]

Agree. Backpedaling speed should be toned down a bit across the board.

 

[Seawied86]

I disagree. Backpeddling is fine. I think that thrust damage should be higher, but thrusts should cause your character to pause a split second  when back peddling. It would be realistic, as you need to brace and lean into a decent thrust, but would not ruin backpeddling for all other uses

 

[PsykoOps]

I'm with Seawied86 on this one. Backpedalling has other uses that might get screwed if you slow it down.

 

[SteveO]

Well I don't see how slowing down backpedaling would ruin it for all other uses (again, it reduces footwork due to only needing two directions to move in to be effective) but the pause thing would work as well I think. 

Though I think thrust damage is high enough as it is.  It kills in just one or two hits already.

 

[Seawied86]

if you reduce backpeddling, that number will shoot up to 4 or 5. Backpeddling is used to keep them at an effective range. If you remove the ability for players to use footwork, a thrust will literally do no damage since all smart players will face hug you. Additionally, backpeddling is a great way to avoid overhead attacks from mauls and other weapons. its a needed part of the game

 

[SteveO]

if you reduce backpeddling, that number will shoot up to 4 or 5. Backpeddling is used to keep them at an effective range. If you remove the ability for players to use footwork, a thrust will literally do no damage since all smart players will face hug you.

So perhaps one shouldn't use thrusting as their primary attack but rather utilize a myriad of attacks, which includes the other 3 attacks.  Instead of being ones primary attack it would turn back into a conditional attack, like it should be IMO. 

Every other attack has a condition to when it's best used, thrusting doesn't have this at the moment.  It's useful in every situation right now because there's no significant drawback.

Additionally, backpeddling is a great way to avoid overhead attacks from mauls and other weapons. its a needed part of the game

Moving sideways works just as well.  And there's not the range problem that thrusting has with overhand hammer attacks.

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

So perhaps one shouldn't use thrusting as their primary attack but rather as a supplement to the other 3 attacks.  Instead of being ones primary attack it would turn back into a conditional attack, like it should be IMO.

I don't see why, a thrust would be used as much as any cut, if not more so as it gave you better penetration and more immediate crippling pain and injury.

Also, what about shield and spear users? They only can stab, and considering how widespread the spear was as a weapon, I would hope it remains a viable weapon in game.

 

[Seawied86]

Backpeddling speed is a crucial part of the maul's balance right now. Since its such a short ranged weapon, reducing backpeddling speed will give maul users a huge advantage. And this is coming from someone who loves the hammer like no other

 

[alexthegrand]

its VERY important to keep it as it is.  its a crucial part of intense melee combat, just as important as good blocking.


foot archery needs a buff and that's totally a separate issue.

 

[Commoner]

I think a simpler solution would be to drastically reduce any amount of damage done when you land a blow while back pedaling. The reason for this is simple. If you are backing up when you swing, you are not commiting a great deal of energy to you swing since you are not stepping into your swing and actually stepping away from it.

In contrast, a blow that is landed while you are moving forward should deal a good deal more damage than a blow than one which made contact while you were standing still. Again this is because of the the fact that you are stepping in with the attack thus commiting your entire body's weight into the blow.

Somethnig like what we see below should be about fair.

Blow Landed While Running Forward = +50% Damage
Blow Landed While Moving Sideward/Standing Still = Normal Damage
Blow Landed While Stepping Backwards = -50% Damage

With the stabbing attack, the effect should be even more noticable since a stab relies almost entirely on the weight you put into the thrust as opposed to a swing where the impact relies alot on the momentum of the swing rather than the weight placed behind it. A good value for adjusting a thrust attack might be about +75% when running forward and -75% when backpedalling.

 

[Seawied86]

commoner's idea would also work,

 

[SteveO]

I don't see why, a thrust would be used as much as any cut, if not more so as it gave you better penetration and more immediate crippling pain and injury.

I'm saying it shouldn't be powerful enough to be used as a sole attack, it should be a conditional attack, just as the other attacks are.  There needs to be a time and place for it, not just full on thrusting all the time.

Backpeddling speed is a crucial part of the maul's balance right now. Since its such a short ranged weapon, reducing backpeddling speed will give maul users a huge advantage. And this is coming from someone who loves the hammer like no other

The maul is also a relatively slow weapon.  You have plenty of opportunity to hit a maul user with other attacks than stabbing. 

Also, what about shield and spear users? They only can stab, and considering how widespread the spear was as a weapon, I would hope it remains a viable weapon in game.

Spear would still be viable, but in certain situations.  I doubt that people used to run up on their enemies with a spear IRL either, they kept them at a distance and then utilized shorter weaponry (swords, daggers, grappling) when the enemy got past their spear range.



Also you can't back pedal near as fast as moving forward IRL.  And let's say you can (because we all know someone will compare them backpedaling in a clear, straight hallway...), you'd still stumble over uneven terrain, rocks, roots, weeds, and what have you.  Unfortunately you can't replicate that in the game (I guess you could through random stumbling while walking back but who wants that?) so something external must be introduced to simulate that bit. 

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

Spear would still be viable, but in certain situations.  I doubt that people used to run up on their enemies with a spear IRL either, they kept them at a distance and then utilized shorter weaponry (swords, daggers, grappling) when the enemy got past their spear range.

Spears were issued not in small part because people couldn't afford swords.

Also you can't back pedal near as fast as moving forward IRL.  And let's say you can (because we all know someone will compare them backpedaling in a clear, straight hallway...), you'd still stumble over uneven terrain, rocks, roots, weeds, and what have you.  Unfortunately you can't replicate that in the game (I guess you could through random stumbling while walking back but who wants that?) so something external must be introduced to simulate that bit.

Now, by now I imagine most people realize I am a full advocate of realism in this game, but we have to incorporate realism within the systems we are given. No, you can't backpedal nearly as quickly as you can int he game. But you can also jump, lunge, and dodge. Not to mention you can sprint. When I talk about realism the most important thing for me is achieving a realistic goal, not necessarily realistic methods. The goal for movement is to make dodging possible. Until we have actual dodges, back pedaling has to fill that role, as well as the role of just backpedaling itself.

 

[SteveO]

Ok let's say backpedaling is the only method of dodging (which, it isn't, but for the sake of argument):  it used to be what?  65% or so?  Why would toning it down to say, 80% be such a bad thing?  You could still move back relatively quickly, but the person pressing the attack would be able to actually catch up in time to prevent the current back-stab, back-stab, method we have currently.  And since moving sideways is 90%, they could maneuver around the person as well to avoid the stab without giving up too much ground.

Spears were issued not in small part because people couldn't afford swords.

Then those unfortunate souls would have to resort to clubbing people with the shaft or grappling, or however else they could fight in closed quarters.  But it's assured they didn't just back up and stab repeatedly. 

 

[test]

Backpedaling speed is needed so players can read each other, without it there are no methods of distance control except an unreliable kick. 

Manual block gameplay is thrown out the window with poor backpedaling speed because it's more effective to run past people and circle around their guards like helicopters.  Slow backspeed = nose to nose rubdowns and people running past each other spinning like WW1 dogfighters instead of focusing on rhythm, timing and distance.

1h/shield is already godly with this patch, just hold W and stuff people's faces with stab/downward/stab combo and own everyone without them even being able to get a swing off.  With slow backpedaling it will be the ONLY way left to play. 

 

[Manitas]

This game is running circles http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,8242.0.html

Manual block gameplay is thrown out the window with poor backpedaling speed because it's more effective to run past people and circle around their guards like helicopters.  Slow backspeed = nose to nose rubdowns and people running past each other spinning like WW1 dogfighters instead of focusing on rhythm, timing and distance.

The problem is, backspeed is not a cause for these problems you mentioned.
The probable causes are: insufficient inertia, powerspinning and being able to swing effectively at hugging distances.

Increased backsped is just another nasty workaround put in to counter issues with effects of other nasty workarounds, and itself will probably create its own set of problems, and more need for more workarounds.