[SUGGESTION] Recruitment system rework for stronger AI armies and more expensive armies

[Alcedo]

Two of the most usual complains are about AI armies of recruits and money being earned too easy. My suggestion is to rework recruiting system so that armies become stronger and more expensive. This will also increase historical accuracy so realism fans must like it.
In few words, I suggest that you recruit not single units but a group of one special unit and few lower tier ordinary troops. Also, special units wages must be higher than ordinary at the same tier. How I see it:

	Aserai	Battania	Empire	Khuzait	Sturgia	Vlandia
Tier 1 recruitment	1 Youth 2 Recruits	1 Highborn Youth 2 Volunteers	1 Vigla Recruit 2 Recruits	1 Noble's Son 2 Nomads	1 Warrior Son 2 Recruits	1 Squire 2 Recruits
Tier 2 recruitment	1 Tribal Horseman or Mameluke Horseman 1 Tribesman 1 Mameluke Soldier	1 Highborn Warrior 1 Clan Warrior 1 Wood Runner	1 Equite 1 Infantryman 1 Archer	1 Qanqli 1 Tribal Warrior 1 Footman	1 Varyag 1 Warrior 1 Woodsman	1 Gallant 1 Levy Crossbowman 1 Footman
Tier 3 recruitment	1 Faris 1 Skirmisher 1 Footman or Mameluke Axeman	1 Hero 1 Trained Warrior or Raider 1 Skirmisher	1 Heavy Horseman 1 Trained Infantryman 1 Trained Archer	1 Torguud 1 Raider or Horseman 1 Hunter or Spearman	1 Varyag Veteran 1 Soldier 1 Hunter or Brigand	1 Knight 1 Crossbowman 1 Spearman or Infantry

Where there are more than 2 units in one tier, I suggest randomizing those of one type so you always have 1 infantry and 1 archer to keep armies balanced. What are your thoughts? Do you like the idea?

EDIT: Minutes after this post had been posted a new patch came out that mentioned improving lords' armies by making them take some troops from garrisons. This improved the overall quality but I keep encountering lords with mainly recruits in their parties. Taking troops from garrisons leads to weakening the cities' protection so a faction that lost a big battle can now be wiped out much easier.

 

[Alcedo]

People see this but nobody votes?

 

[CzeReptile]

I honestly just run mods that do it better. What you really need is to balance the troops so horses dont run everything over.

 

[Alcedo]

I honestly just run mods that do it better. What you really need is to balance the troops so horses don't run everything over.

I think this is fine because cavalry really was the queen of the battlefield in the middle ages and it is much more expensive to get horsemen. But I think that horses must be more expensive, at least warhorses.

 

[CzeReptile]

I think this is fine because cavalry really was the queen of the battlefield in the middle ages and it is much more expensive to get horsemen. But I think that horses must be more expensive, at least warhorses.

True, it was the cavalry that would dictate outcome of many battles. But in this game, cavalry is easy to get and you can field HUGE cavalry force for little cost. My point lies more in the simulation, where it basically makes other units kind of meh. While human can to a degree outsmart cavalry, AI in simulation cant. So they roll. In my opinion cavalry upkeep should be at least twice as high and their buy cost several times higher. If talking at least lil bit realism it wouldnt be manageable to field hundreds of horses everywhere, with heavy armor and everything, from just steppes.

 

[Apocal]

If talking at least lil bit realism it wouldnt be manageable to field hundreds of horses everywhere, with heavy armor and everything, from just steppes.

Yes it would be. That was one of the big advantages the steppes had, along with huge herds of other animals, and why steppe peoples were such a persistent threat.

 

[Alcedo]

Yes it would be. That was one of the big advantages the steppes had, along with huge herds of other animals, and why steppe peoples were such a persistent threat.

But they also got weaknesses that are not represented in the game. I think maybe factions can have not only bonuses but also penalties. Like khuzaits build siege engines slower, i.e. But this is topic for another thread and I must think about other factions

 

[CzeReptile]

Yes it would be. That was one of the big advantages the steppes had, along with huge herds of other animals, and why steppe peoples were such a persistent threat.

But their threat was hugely dependent on constant plunder, as the economy would not be able to support such huge armies off nothing. IT just does not work. While in the game, having full horse armies has no negative effects, only lets you snowball.

 

[Apocal]

But their threat was hugely dependent on constant plunder, as the economy would not be able to support such huge armies off nothing. IT just does not work.

They didn't rely on plunder to host "huge armies" of horsemen because pasturage doesn't cost money. And I put that in quotes because their entire society was effectively militarized, all the time. The skills they used at war were the same skills they developed and used as a part of their daily life being pastoralists on the steppes. The guy herding sheep in the morning could be acting as a outrider at noon before slipping off at dusk as a raider riding against another clan.

While in the game, having full horse armies has no negative effects, only lets you snowball.

For players, you have to run around collecting warhorses from wherever you can find them (I prefer knocking off steppe raiders for them). That's a pretty big downside because warhorses can get pretty expensive -- the cheap ones you can only find in the central imperial plains area and everwhere else 1000 is a good price, with 1500 being tolerable.

I don't know why, but they don't require the AI to do the same thing, which could/should introduce an interesting form of resource control: imagine if you're not just mindlessly conquering from one city or castle to the next, but actually can think "Oh, the Khuzaits get their horses from here and here; if I take this castle and that one, they won't be able to field as much cavalry."

Where there are more than 2 units in one tier, I suggest randomizing those of one type so you always have 1 infantry and 1 archer to keep armies balanced. What are your thoughts? Do you like the idea?

There was a similar system in 1257AD, which worked for what it was but some people really didn't like it. I thought it was good, flavorful and pretty reasonable to use but that comes with the caveat that the player could recruit the wholesale unit then dismiss the troops he didn't want. In that mod, it was taking the Senior and Less Knights but not taking along the accompanying Mounted Serjeant or similar. And some lances were basically filled with absolute crap while others were like the Dream Team of medieval warfare.

 

[CzeReptile]

They didn't rely on plunder to host "huge armies" of horsemen because pasturage doesn't cost money. And I put that in quotes because their entire society was effectively militarized, all the time. The skills they used at war were the same skills they developed and used as a part of their daily life being pastoralists on the steppes. The guy herding sheep in the morning could be acting as a outrider at noon before slipping off at dusk as a raider riding against another clan.

For players, you have to run around collecting warhorses from wherever you can find them (I prefer knocking off steppe raiders for them). That's a pretty big downside because warhorses can get pretty expensive -- the cheap ones you can only find in the central imperial plains area and everwhere else 1000 is a good price, with 1500 being tolerable.

Pasturage does not, but men do. Horses need care, people need equipment. While the image they are based on can explain some things, ingame they have cities and are actual farmers and such. Also if you look aside from roaming full on step horde, fielding cavalry has always been the most expensive part of army in medieval times.

Also I easily buy war horses for like 600 in Aserai lands. Not to mention, why even bother with the highest lvl units, even basic HA is a map sweeper. Or you can get them easily from bandits, with javelins. And then you circle and one shot everything (which is funny).

I believe cav should be at least twice as much expensive to maintain and maybe 4 times as expensive to get in terms of gold. All those knights and everything do not just spawn out of thin air (well...), and paying few hundred for unit worth upwards of thousands is just way too easy.

Maybe for the sheer sake of it I will do Khuzait campaign to see how fast I can field full on HA army.

 

[Apocal]

Also I easily buy war horses for like 600 in Aserai lands. Not to mention, why even bother with the highest lvl units, even basic HA is a map sweeper.

I'm not saying it can never happen, but I've never personally seen an Aserai horse for less than 950. Desert horses are cheaper, but they aren't war horses. And both of the T2 HAs are pretty damned bad.

 

[CzeReptile]

I'm not saying it can never happen, but I've never personally seen an Aserai horse for less than 950. Desert horses are cheaper, but they aren't war horses. And both of the T2 HAs are pretty damned bad.

I buy war horses for cheap regularly. And never had problems with any horse archers really. Vanilla is just so damn easy.