http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,332942.msg7919380.html#msg7919380Computica said:I tossed him the source code everyone so he is free to fully mod the game. Let me know if anyone else wants the source for the 2nd last release of SODW.
zodden said:I just wanted to say thanks for this great addition. I think its time for your own forum.
One thing I don't like is the night time thing. I can move but nothing else can. It looks strange to have the NPC groups running in place and turning to face you. I think it also makes thing easier as you never have to worry about anything while roaming at night, especially if your in the early game.
EDIT: So playing v20 r5 and I think I like the night thing a bit more now. I miss being chased though. Maybe an option in the Mod Options Panel to turn this on and off? Is this easy to add?
Great mod I must say. Do you think v20 r5 will play well endgame? I must say I don't usually try betas often but after watching the Lets play of your 18.4 version I liked what I saw. If I find any bugs I will report them.
One feature that A New Dawn has is the ability for minor factions to siege and take towns and castles and become a major faction. Its a great feature. Can something like that be added?
zincra said:Like i undrestand, you intend to add beast enemys to game. Does it take alot to work to add beast companions also. Like quest or event obtaineble wolf, bear or what ever beat you intend to add.
Like something you meet in animal merchant in road he has Bear cub or wolf cub. And you can buy them feed them up and rise them loyality. And add them party, but they havemaybe some negative effects to party morale or opinion effects to some lord reletionship who accuse you in beast magic.
Balystik said:I have a question for @gsanders about last released version of Phosphor 20r5: Are you planning to add the "Kingdom reborn" feature from the Kaos kit to the Phosphor mod in the future? The reason for this question is that I just felt sad when I read that you just ommited it from the actual version. I think it's a good feature and a realistic one too, that just make the map more alive and the endgame much more challenging. Also excuse me if this post doesn't goes here, I'm new on the forum actually
By the way, thank you for yor awesome work gsanders, and I hope you have plans to add it back in the future
gsanders said:Balystik said:I have a question for @gsanders about last released version of Phosphor 20r5: Are you planning to add the "Kingdom reborn" feature from the Kaos kit to the Phosphor mod in the future? The reason for this question is that I just felt sad when I read that you just ommited it from the actual version. I think it's a good feature and a realistic one too, that just make the map more alive and the endgame much more challenging. Also excuse me if this post doesn't goes here, I'm new on the forum actually
By the way, thank you for yor awesome work gsanders, and I hope you have plans to add it back in the future
Yes, the Kaos kit civil war and kingdom reborn features are nice in theory, the problem is Diplomacy only set aside space in the layout of faction slots for 10 factions, which Perisno uses all 10. Once you activate civil war option, the number of factions becomes 20; with kingdom restore, the number of factions becomes 30. But every action that involves a faction needs to be able t apply to all 30 factions, even if 20 of them are seldom used. So for example diplomacy allocates 10 slots in memory for each faction to store relations with the other faction (one per other faction). But now it needs 30 slots allocated; or the next 20 slots in memory get corrupted as they are overwritten in mid game, producing a storm of errors. In fact that's what I saw happen last night so I pulled the update I planned.
There are 3 places where diplomacy implicitly uses slots, one per faction, so every slot defined after that point has to be moved UP by 20+20+20 slots...
and if Perisno .8 adds giants or I add drow or goblins or something like this that's more movement of slots.
After the slots are jockeyed around I next have to map what kind of troops are tier 1, tier 2, tier 3 for reinforcements for these 20 new factions; the game
doesn't know who they are at first. I have hundreds of lines of changes in initializing them, all of which I wouldn't have to do if I merged Kaos kit onto native, without diplomacy (notice there was little talk of Kaos kit AFTER diplomacy was merged). These are the main issues.
Next was titles: races complicate titles, because native detection of gender fails if you have more than tf_male and tf_female defined - once you add elves and dwarves, a new scheme needs to be done. That was easy enough to work around, but then it gets worse: the method used to auto-rename your character in Kaos kit gave everyone double titles - if I wanted say to rename player "Hector" into "Prince Hector", I can build that string, assign it as the new name for trp_player, but the game engine, outside my script, renames this to Prince Prince Hector. Eventually I just dropped the titles for Prince/Princess and Baron/Baroness. But strangely, King and Queen managed to survive, even though they seem to use the same schema, possibly because they become liege of the faction and handling changes. I wasted a full week on titles and felt it was time better spent anywhere else. I'd say that only is my single greatest dislike of Kaos kit - the titles came out strange.
I'd like to see working civil war. The kingdom restore is OK, but auto civil war is a greatly useful feature.
These need much more integration time though, and may introduce yet more unexpected errors in late game, so need deeper testing. I didn't see errors in the latest r5 until I had taken the game beyond 28 days... but those errors should not happen in the earlier "r5 tester" I released more than a week ago.
- GS
Yard1 said:Very interesting. So magic affects the spirit, and the spirit affects the body? Could an example of an magical attack be influencing a sick person's mind, causing them to lose will to fight their illness and die, even if normally they would survive?
A: this is a tradional magic attack, yes. As would be for example filling Charles Manson's mind with a desire to perform an act that would be made infamous on the television news, and later the television news giving strength to the idea of doing something terrible in the past - a prophetic person sees the future, ergo the future touches the past. Could Hitler resist a billion people hating him? But he didn't try very hard to do the right thing, yes? Was he touched as a baby? Were his siblings harmed? Or what of Stalin, where the siblings were systematically killed? Stalin tried to become a priest. Magic exists, but as to what it really is, has not been defined. It seems to have a component vector in the time domain, but that's meaningless in a fantasy video game, eh?
But wouldn't that force the player to be "good" and devout, for fear of negative effects? Or does that mean that the more evil a person is, the smaller their magic resistance, resulting in increased magical potential, but also requiring the mage to posses great willpower so that they won't be destroyed by that magical energy? Similarly, how do demon worshippers tie into that? Is that an example of anti-faith?
A. Currently players are encouraged to be "bad", because the game *only* rewards killing, selling slaves, and looting the dead. There is no chance to pay tribute, no experience reward for non-lethal solutions, no extra credit for capturing alive, no opportunity to change the dynamics for kingdoms. A player "works" the "system", and is encouraged to do "evil" in the current system, with roleplay of any alternative generally interfering with their optimum progress. I'd like to see the "system" reward good deeds, in a tangible way that can be seen in game. As for dropping dead after being "knocked out" in battle, IF they fail a karma check, I'd say they were working the system plenty before this. Maybe it's good to take a moment and consider their deeds. Of course there needs to be fewer ways to wash karma/honor; at the moment honor can be farmed by just letting some captured troops/bandits/etc go. And what of people who routinely farm relations with bandits to have them "like" their kingdom or village, which presumes commoner faction is completely expendable because they have no "soldiers" of the worth of bandits...
But to address your questions:
"the more evil a person are, the smaller their magic resistance, resulting in increased magical potential, but also requiring the mage to posses great willpower so that they won't be destroyed by that magical energy?" Possibly. They would have less magic resistance, and likely to weaken the resistance between the spirit world and the visible world. In which case magic would be stronger in their vicinity. They might attract unclean things to appear randomly in their battles or camp at night, and they may have interactions or attractions to predators or parasites emerging from battlegrounds (which are the fields of corpses immediately following a deadly fight, with possibly a few routed stragglers).
On topic of different religions - does that mean that Water focuses on maximizing magical reistance, while eg. Fire tries to find the balance between resistance and using magic to do good?
A. Water dislikes magicians, whereas fire respects them. Fire sees no problem with using magic to attack an unrighteous enemy, or to ask an ally to do the same (such as a Djinn). Water would consider it an unclean act, but would pray for victory, heal on the battlefield with laying on of hands, remove fear,
strengthen one another, seek a pathfinding vision, pray for the location of water if moving in the desert, and pray to stun enemies - and those enemies would have a defense against such a prayer based in part on their karma, their level of fatigue, and their own type of faith.
Is magic inherently evil and faith inherently good, or are they just tools to be used in good or evil way?
A. This gets to the root of definitions: some things that we think are magical are really Divine, and some things we thought were Divine are pretty much Magical. If Magick is placing something into a person's spirit in order to feed off their energy, in a viral way, we'd have to consider that evil in the purest sense.
But Magick and Divinity can be intermingled, such as the Martial Arts of a Shaolin priest, which have both magick and faith component vectors operating at the same time. While we don't expect them to fly, we neither can comfortably explain some of the things we see them do -- or if you've never seen them in person (I have), then you'd believe it was some sort of trick or scam. No, it exists - but WHY and HOW are somewhat unclear. Perhaps a person who arrives as a skeptic never sees evidence other than what their skepticism allows, so that their "faith" is not disturbed. This is a sense driven explanation of reality -- its all really a masquerade using MMO technology, but its much smoother than we think computers etc are capable of, even though in my own lifetime my personal computer, built on exactly $1350 USD budget in 1983 vs 2014, has changed in bandwidth by a factor of 64,000 times - both in terms of CPU MIPS, in memory bandwidth, in RAM size, in disk storage, in 3D graphics expressed as number of vertices per second or in terms of programmatic addressable resolution.
Implementation: would magicians enter the spirit world before battlefield and fight there, and then the effects of those fights would be transferend appropriately to the real world?
A. This remains to be seen. Magic would have much higher strength in the spirit world; it may be magic is possible, at reduced field intensity, outside the spirit world but near a battleground, graveyard, plague city, or other large event - or on an anti-holy day, such as Halloween.
What would be the position of magicians in different cultures? We know that Water shunnes magic, but would they be respected or denounces in other faiths? Or is that, once again, faith dependent?
A. A great question. Earth seems to accept magic, and for this reason Water somewhat dislikes or shuns earth, labelling them "pagan" and suggesting they are unclean. Fire might also suggest the other faiths are unclean, although I suspect they respect Air. Air accepts magic, when it is used for good purposes; Fire with some limits; each tends to have innate magic the others don't share. No one faith has all forms of magic, except celestial, and they have all the limitations applied that normally inhibit one faith only, which prevents them from being overpowerful. Air has different weaknesses than Fire, which are different than Water, which differ from Earth. I need to make a matrix of who likes who, who hates who, and who is neutral to who...
Earth Air
Celestial
Fire Water
with Celestial having no dispute with anyone, believing they each struggle to explain the world from within their own limitations of perception
and without feeling some great sense of hubris or superiority over the others - as that too is a trap. Celestial would seek to be meek, allowing God to be Great instead of themselves.
Sorry for so many questions - the concept you present is unique, and I am really excited to learn more about it. Not even in the terms of what's possible in game, but in the terms of pure concept, how you would make it without any game limitations.
A. It's a timely dialog as I next have to go from "theory" to implementation, and these are excellent questions -- which doubtless should be copied to dev log or "suggestions" to Phosphor.
Cheers
Yard1 said:Thanks for answering! Couple more:
Does that mean that Phosphor's magic can't affect the physical world in ways your traditional fantasy magic can, eg. starting a fire, telekinesis, lighting and so on? Could a fire spell not cause true fire, but rather an illusion, tricking the mind and body to feel like it's on fire, when in reality it's not?
Can magic only affect living beings?
A: . in the spirit world lightning bolts use electricity, fireballs make fire, etc, and thus there needs to be a way to measure the effectiveness different armor has against these attacks. In the not-spirit world, the damage is scaled DOWN and could still be amended based on time of day, proximity of specific things weakening the separation of the two nested worlds or layers-of-perception if you prefer that explanation. I would tend to believe the first is difficult, the second is easy, and the statement magic can affect only living beings is "mostly" true. I think weather and scene can change by some combination of divine or magic effects; we have the case of a prophet or avatar walking on water AND his apostle/disciple in one body of writings, and in not one but two others a mountain moved by faith alone. How exactly those got accomplished is somewhat difficult to discern. We are left to presume some effects can translate into the perception of our physical world, even if we presume most such effects are contained only within the spiritual world-layer.
Can one summon things from the spirit world (such as those battlefield predators) and control them? Are they real, or rather illusions?
A. Briefly, and probably mostly at night, with them disappearing the next day. Such things may appear also without neccessarily anyone controlling them, perhaps to prey on both sides. There are many examples in literature of Jin existing unseen, seeing men, living and behaving as men, with time running backwards (such that dung thence became uneaten food) (see wiki "Jin"). Are they real? Well... if they come from beyond the veil, return beyond the veil, and mostly are active in our sleep or lucid dream sessions, then I'd have to label that as "quasi-real", again deferring that waking reality is yet another substate of a (very long duration) lucid dream, from which you presumably awaken upon "death". Worlds are then presented as a series of Matryoshka doll like "shells" of perception which confer the ability to change location, rule sets (can you fly? How do you know you're awake reading this? Can you see your fingerprints on your thumb? and so on ... so many questions to ask).
If all religions come from one proto-religion, does that mean there is only one god, represented by many?
A. Some believe this. I won't tell you what to believe. As for writing, from my modder perspective there is but one true God but most of the faiths have access to a portion of powers - like colors of a rainbow, they are each distinct and a PART of the total.
What about the devil? Is that an anti-god, with demon worshiping as an anti-faith?
A:
It is possible the devil is merely a shadow where God does not easily penetrate, or a polar opposite of divinity.
It is also possible the devil plays both sides, in order to sift us, and the true God is somewhat outside the simulation.
I would mention the fact that very good people exist suggests we aren't actually living in some sort of hell or were "left behind"; the world, as
presented to us, has both good and evil in great abundance, and we can travel the planet and sample some of each if we wish.
I would suggest the weakening of organized religion is evidence of an "anti-faith" successfully spreading, like a cancer,
in the meme state of our internet driven Gestalt, like bacteria growing on agar on a Petri plate.
Do god/gods actively intervene in the lives of mortals, or is that related to the karma system?
A. In game, I hope that's where you are asking, everything has to be with scripts. There is a chance of a righteous person receiving divine aid, at least during
a spirit world fight, and an unrighteous person getting a visit by less principled predators, which might attack both sides, with a random likelihood adjusted by karma and need (in terms of battle ratio). Since everything has to be controlled by scripts I'd guess the early revs wont have much happening and later revs could have increasingly sophisticated ways of helping. The chance still has to be fairly small, or people would wander into fights just to spring some sort of special battle, thinking they will be saved from their own foolishness if they can just get a fight going that NEEDS a miracle. Mmmm, maybe the more they fight the less likely they are to get help! A true pacifist that avoids needless fights might get help on the one unavoidable fight... I'll have to consider ways to script what constitutes need and how to see if the person is after all aggressive -- although maybe their religion choice rewards some sort of punkiness (like fire, or sometimes water.)
Do you have any other supernatural/magical beings planned, such as Djinn?
A.
Yes. But first I'd like something small to be able to act independently of the player, such as war dogs or snakes or giant spiders or something.
I'd next like to see independent spell casters or priests able to activate effects on their own initiative, with a timer controlling the likelihood of the next effect,
so that these happen at staggered intervals across a large battle. This would be the two conditions needed to allow a Jinn, or a dragon, or anything else noteworthy, to appear and be modeled in a useful manner.
What would happen if one were to reject all religion - would he automatically become evil? What if he lived morally (of course that again brings us the question of what is moral and what is not)? Would that be possible? Or is lack of religion a religion in itself, only with different gods, explanations and practices?
A. This is a good question. Here is where I guess I'd get burned as a heretic anyway: I believe traditional religion has been allowed to be burdened by doctrines of men in order to test our conscience. It is one thing to stand up to tyranny from an outsider, without presumed authority, and denounce acts of barbarism that offend your inner sense of what you expect from the spirit of your faith. It becomes quite a different thing to surrender your sense of active conscience and instead allow an Imam, a priest, a pastor, or for that matter some guru to tell you what is and is not your choice/vote in terms of outrage or passive acceptance. If you wonder whether it is right to stone people, it bothers you deeply, but someone else says the scripture accepts it (which you didnt observe getting written and you simply trust is interpreted correctly, and has not since been overturned, updated, revised, or in any way overruled by newer authority) -- well, classical scriptures "accepted" slavery, codified how to treat your slaves, gave you rights (and responsibilities*) with regards to slaves, and so on. Nevertheless a modern audience finds slavery repugnant (as well they are supposed to), in all its forms, and whosoever says look I can get away with this because an old book says so and I believe that book has never changed or been changed by men - well, this is why some people look to a spirit within instead of letting an outsider exercise THEIR vote, their choice, their test of right.
But you asked in the game:
In game, not choosing a religion puts you outside the mainstream of THAT faith, and potentially erodes the relationship with lords and ladies who feel strongly regarding their faith. It is possible to be treated poorly as an atheist or apostate by other faiths, although a very righteous individual (from a test of karma) might nevertheless respond to a righteous atheist/agnostic/undeclared (based on karma test) due to each being close to "God", regardless of the outer mantle of stated religion. It's possible to belong to a church and be outside its boundaries; its possible to be friendly to many faiths and seek to cultivate a relationship with the center. In game terms, no one church is perfect -- each has schisms and factions; nobody is fond of the inquisition, certainly least of all God, whose name and reputation are damaged by their energetic efforts. Not having a declared faith may make travel difficult in some places and easier in others. I'll have to see just how much to tweak that to be perfect. I'd still like to have caravans be able to cross borders without being accosted by religious police - but that makes it interesting, especially smuggling pilgrims between kingdoms ; )
Do you have any heresies, reformations and schisms planned, if not for now, later?
A. Yes I think those are neccessary; also one might choose a faith but not much obey their rules, in which case the player or npc ought to be labeled "the apostate" or something like this. I should add a street begger that can audit your karma as well, both for color and sass.
What about the existing religions in Perisno lore - New Gods, Old Gods, Elven Goddess of The Fountain, Dragon religion, etc? Will those be adapted, rewritten or scratched and new ones made from the ground up?
A. Theyre on the cutting block -- I didn't make them, I didnt need them, they were placeholders to me, as is most of Perisno's color and lore. The CODE
matters, the rest is eye candy.
On the more technical side, I don't know if you have played Sword of Damocles (M&B mod) - it also has religions, and while the mechanics are more "traditional" (no magic exists), it introduced "Faith troops" - when a Noble troop reached a high enough level of zeal (which was determined by buildings in towns and villages such as temples and shrines), they could upgrade to a new troop, which was unique and vastly different for every religion. Perhaps something similar could be implemented, as a way for player to get faith/magical troops?
A. Yes. I don't have Sword of Damocles code, but technically it is available upon request. I have looked at the mod briefly.
I like the idea of building temples and such, but as for faith troops I'd reckon these are casters or semi-casters with some sort of limited special abilities.
They should also be found in certain caravans, especially ones with "passengers". I'd like to see caravans carrying not only cargo but a chance of people (townspeople, farmers, pilgrims, the odd VIP + bodyguards), perhaps with very honorable persons offered a quest to escort a caravan if they wish to or very dishonorable people a quest to assasinate/capture a VIP or pilgrims in the caravan. So much more could be done if the ground rules allow some tension and some minor casting. Can a person fly? Code exists for that -- look at the deathcam for example. What if you didnt have to die to use that, say while mounted on a flying carpet (that no doubt snickers like a horse from time to time with the current warband engine).
KonykSoldatyk said:http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,332942.msg7919380.html#msg7919380Computica said:I tossed him the source code everyone so he is free to fully mod the game. Let me know if anyone else wants the source for the 2nd last release of SODW.
Oldtimer said:gsanders said:Oldtimer said:Hello Mr. Sanders,
could you remove the starting bandit fight and mission? By now they are an annoyance only.
If the starting bandit is left in, how abt. making him lootable?
Keep on the good work!
Rgds, Oldtimer
It may be harder than it looks. I'll look at it, as I always want to skip it also.
the whole opening with the merchant and all this is time wasting indeed...
Hello Mr. Sanders,
the starting mission and bandit are removed in Warsword Conquest at least. Perhaps something to take a peek at.
Rgds, Oldtimer
gsanders said:Oldtimer said:gsanders said:Oldtimer said:Hello Mr. Sanders,
could you remove the starting bandit fight and mission? By now they are an annoyance only.
If the starting bandit is left in, how abt. making him lootable?
Keep on the good work!
Rgds, Oldtimer
It may be harder than it looks. I'll look at it, as I always want to skip it also.
the whole opening with the merchant and all this is time wasting indeed...
Hello Mr. Sanders,
the starting mission and bandit are removed in Warsword Conquest at least. Perhaps something to take a peek at.
Rgds, Oldtimer
It's removed for King, Prince, Vassal starts in Phosphor. I'm not exactly sure where it happened, just that it is removed.
Oldtimer said:Mr. Sanders,
before I forget, bandit`s gone but the merchant and his mission are still available. Also a good thing.
Rgds, Oldtimer