[Suggestion] No arbitraty equipment restriction between classes...

[CalenLoki]

... in each faction. only statistics/usefulness restriction.

As title says: If you choose class (arch/inf/cav) you should only choose statistics (attributes/skills/proficiency). Weapons and armours should be common for whole faction.

the 3 classes for every faction will still exist, however their proficiencies will change, and will be able to use the full list of gear faction gear.

- olo's explanation for those who can't understand what I'm writing about

Pros:
1. realism - no magic restriction (my favourite, but absolutely unimportant for many...)
2. easier to balance in the future - 5 equipment lists (one per faction) instead of 14 (one per each class)
3. more variety - possible to make really unique equipment combination
4. no need for "could you drop me spear/shield/hammer/crossbow next round"
5. classes more finite (because no-class items would be less useful - due to statistics, which can't be bypassed like weapon restrictions)
6. show good balance (pros and cons) of equipment - because arbitrary restrictions show something exactly opposite.

Hoverer, there would appear several weapon equipment combination that nobody like to see:

1st Problem: Archers with 2h/polearm/throwing weapons or infantry with bows.

Solution: change skills and proficiency: archers 150 ranged, 90 1h and 50 for rest. infantry as they are now.

2nd problem: Archers with heavy armour.

Solution: make high encumbrance lower power draw skill (every full 10 enc. = -1PD). Also special ability for closed helmets (-25% archery/crossbow for ocular helmet, -50% for full-closed helmets), Unable to use bow/crossbow with gloves heavier than leather.

隐藏

PsykoOps said that encumbrance PD penalty is unrealistic.

First of all archers don't get gloves and if you wan't to nerf PD then nerf it all together and not with some kind of unrealistics encumberance system.

I answered that it isn't

it's not unrealistic - try shooting with 20kg backpack (or mail shirt+gambeson+rest of battle equipment, if you have) and heavy wooden bow,  then compare results (both accuracy and tiredness of your arms) to shooting without backpack.

3th problem: Everyone uses horses.

Solution: riding skill too low to ride better horse for no-dedicated-cavalry and no horse-archery.

4th problem: Melee infantry with crossbows.  (by Berserker Pride)

Solution: give all troops except crossbowman really low proficiency in crossbows - so melee infantry can use crossbow, but 2x slower reload, 2x slower aiming and lower accuracy.

5th problem: Nord archers with long axes. (by Kingofnoobia)

Solution: balance long axes with other axes - they should be option that give pros (length, damage) and cons (speed), not just the best option. Also difference in 2h proficiency between archer and huscarl is huge (90vs135) and should be even bigger (because it's not archer weapon)

What do you think? (please, READ (whole thread. twice, if you must), criticise WITH ARGUMENTS or ask question only. Eventually use someone argument to show your disagreement)

 

[switchfoot]

No, I really don't like this idea. I like the classes how they are now.

 

[RalliX]

Only in Deathmatch.

 

[CalenLoki]

Any arguments?

 

[CtrlAltDe1337]

I like being able to customize my equipment.  And customizing stats would lead to everyone piling all their points into health/damage/movement speed.

 

[Qwertyman]

naw,  in my opinion equipment makes a huge impact on your playstyle, far more than stats-  If i steal an xbow as a nord footman, I can compete with actual xbowmen easily unless at long range.
and equaly-  a swadian xbowman can take on nord infantry if he gets hold of a decent melee weapon, like a greatsword, or a spear/sheild

 

[PsykoOps]

First of all archers don't get gloves and if you wan't to nerf PD then nerf it all together and not with some kind of unrealistics encumberance system.

 

[Seawied86]

would be too difficult to balance.


Besides, it would just get rid of any faction culture or uniqueness.

 

[HULKSMASH]

No, just no. 

 

[Berserker Pride]

It would lead to a lot of infantry\xbowmen.  The ones ingame are bad enough for that.

 

[Swadius 2.0]

I like this idea, the picking of the classes would determine most of equipment capable of being used anyway. No footman would have the skills necessary to wield a bow better than the weakest one, and no archer would be able to wield anything wiith a high damage effectively due to lack of melee proficiencies, power strike, and agility. They could try to use it if they want, but they would be far from being very good at it.

 

[Elegy]

Variety is the spice of life.

 

[obolus]

i think if everybody could take everything, there would be no need for different unique factions. i dont like this idea.

 

[Vornne]

I quite like this idea, but I also think that it's probably too late in the beta to implement and rebalance for this now; it would be easy to add as a mod after release.

Thinking about it coming from the real life angle, I can see valid points from both sides. On one hand, it seems realistic that the person equipping the vaegir troops would not mind the infantry taking the scimitars that the archers can use; but on the other hand the archers would probably not be able to take the bardiches or the infantry take bows, rather wanting to keep those weapons for dedicated troops... maybe. So possibly a compromise would be to add back scimitars to vaegir footmen, maybe give archers in general access to some basic shields, and whatever other situations there are where troops don't have access to weapons of their faction that aren't specialized or higher tier for another class.

Though in any case I think the secondary skills of the current classes could be reduced a lot more from what they are now, for example something like:
Ranged
Nord: Crossbows 60->10, Polearms 90->50
Khergit: Crossbows 60->0, 2h 80->40
Rhodok: 2h 100->60, Archery 60->30
Swadian: Polearms 90->60, 2h 90->80, Throwing 90->70
Vaegir: 2h 80->60, Crossbows 60->20
Infantry
Nord: Crossbows 60->0
Rhodok: Archery 30->10
Swadian: no change
Vaegir: Crossbows 50->20
Cavalry
Nord: Polearms 105->90, Archery 105->40, Crossbows 105->0
Khergit: 2h 115->90, Archery 115->50, Crossbows 115->0
Rhodok: 2h 100->70, Archery 100->30
Swadian: no change
Vaegir: Crossbows 60->10

Some classes like nord, rhodok, khergit cavalry have the same in every skill; which makes it seem like it hasn't been finished, and is still the test data that was entered at the start.

 

[Regendur]

Best left to a future mod...

 

[Tiberius]

No.

Just, no.

 

[CalenLoki]

I'm sorry, but I thought it's obvious: equipment would be shared between classes, not factions...

Main idea is instead of magical limiting weapon choose, just make them unsuitable for some kind of troops due to skills.

@CtrlAltDe1337 - lets stick with customizable equipment - custom stats is idea for another thread/mode.

naw,  in my opinion equipment makes a huge impact on your playstyle, far more than stats-  If i steal an xbow as a nord footman, I can compete with actual xbowmen easily unless at long range.
and equaly-  a swadian xbowman can take on nord infantry if he gets hold of a decent melee weapon, like a greatsword, or a spear/sheild

And you think it should be like that? IMO stats should be much more important than equipment.

First of all archers don't get gloves and if you wan't to nerf PD then nerf it all together and not with some kind of unrealistics encumberance system.

Have you seen any thread in which I want to just nerf archers, without adding them something in exchange?
In this system, archer would have access to gloves - just like everyone else. And it's not unrealistic - try shooting with 20kg backpack (or mail shirt+gambeson+rest of battle equipment, if you have) and heavy wooden bow,  then compare results (both accuracy and tiredness of your arms) to shooting without backpack.

would be too difficult to balance.


Besides, it would just get rid of any faction culture or uniqueness.

Not so hard - you would have to balance 14 classes statistics (same as now) and only 5 equipment lists (instead of 14). Only problem is that whole balance need to be made (nearly) from scratch.

About faction uniqueness I wrote above.

It would lead to a lot of infantry\xbowmen.  The ones ingame are bad enough for that.

x-bowman who reload 2x slower, aim 2x slower and have lower accuracy. better than now, you can use crossbow as melee infantry nearly without penalty...

@Swadius and Vornne - I like when somebody understand what I'm talking about

 

[olo]

interesting idea, but can olo ask why you propose this?

olo sees a lot of cons and no pros, maybe they are assumed, but you didnt mention them, what are the pluses to this?

 

[CalenLoki]

Good question Olo.
1. realism - no magic restriction (my favourite, but absolutely unimportant for many...)
2. easier to balance in the future - 5 equipment lists instead of 14.
3. more variety
4. no need for "could you drop me spear/shield/hammer next round"
5. more defined classes (because no-class items would be less useful - due to statistics, which can't be bypassed like weapon restrictions)

Also - what cons?

 

[tylertfb]

I'm like olo in that I don't see any huge advantage to this. Can you give us a couple of specific class/weapon/armor combos that would be possible in this system that you think would improve the game?